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Direct Link To This Post Topic: A Disappointing Surprise with the Water Heater
    Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 6:00pm
Lostagain, lets for sure stay of politics. 

As to tstat adjustment, you are 100% correct, there is none, on either the propane or ac side, which in my opinion is ridiculous. For that reason, I added a real adjustable digital thermostat (all of $10 from Amazon) on the propane side, which I have a post on. 

I hated the water waste from our little 30 gallon tanks while fiddling with the hot and cold shower valves so now the temp is exactly where I (actually where my wife Wink) wants it right out of the hot tap. As I'm never on ac unless plugged in at home I didn't bother with doing the ac side, but it could be done I'm sure. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 5:43pm
offgrid, good point.  There are even more switches.  That thermostat box, light tan on mine and about 2"x3", with a round thingy (a legal term, not an engineering term) has even more switching function since it turns the heating system off and on by temperature.  How do you adjust it since there's no dial or digital readout?

Re the NEC, yes, some of it's there to prevent people from sticking their tongues on a frozen lamp post.

To use an over used clichĂ©, at the end of the day, the users manual should adequately explain the switching systems for the hot water heater and it doesn't.  Strictly speaking, the rocker switch on the water heater and the breaker should be enough, but only if they were well explained and the user was advised that the electric and gas functions are as different as a ......[I was going to put in some names of political parties, but out of respect for our very wise no politics policy] ....fish and a house cat.
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Fred & Maria Kearney
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 4:04pm
Lostagain, thanks for the explanation, makes sense to me. I'm very used to turning breakers on and off both in my personal and professional life, but most people probably aren't. 

As you might know from some of my other posts, I'm usually a stickler for the NEC, I was one of the original authors of Article 690 (the PV section). There is good reason for 99% of what's in there, although sometimes its there to address the lowest common denominator. 

One of the sections I ignored when I rewired a house back in the early oughts was the arc fault breaker section for bedrooms which was new that year. The code ended up being ahead of the technology and my ceiling fans tripped the arc fault breakers. Either the new arc fault code section had to go or my ceiling fans, so I chose the code. 

Actually you raise a good point about the thermostat being yet another switching device. If you look at the circuit diagram for the ac side of the water heater, you are now the proud owner of five series connected switches in that circuit. There are both a thermostat and an overtemp switch in line with that heating element as well as the 3 switches we've been discussing...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 4:01pm
Pod People,

I believe you. I looked thru manual and can't find a water heater (in a Pod) that does not have the element switch.

You can add a switch like Dave and Fred.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 3:49pm
lostagain,

I'm fine with what you did, in a way I can understand wanting a switch in the circuit. My CB I turn on once, when the WH has water. And I don't turn it on, when not camping. Camp On.
Mike Carter
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 3:41pm
offgrid, look at it from the point of view of the lay user.  You are an engineer who is very knowledgeable about this stuff.  MCarter, also is a very knowledgeable person who knows what to look for.  For the lay person looking behind gas piping under the gas valve in a hard to open outside access panel is not intuitive.  Suburban had to put a switch somewhere as a back up to the coach switch, so the stuck it where it was close to the wires and likely easy to install in the manufacturing process. But the reality is that most users don't know it's there or about the need to use it.  And, as was pointed out, the access door is hard to open and the locking mechanism is a spring waiting to break, and, in conformity with Murphy's law, at the worst possible moment.

The breaker is, as Mike and I agree, a "switch" in the technical sense.  It is designated, as I previously noted, SWP so it can be used repeatedly as would any regular switch.  [Though in a very technical sense it violates the NEC, but that's the least of our worries.]  The problem is with using breakers for switching the water heater off and on is that: 1, most people are not accustomed to using breakers as of and on switches; 2, the breaker is not necessarily labeled; 3, its in an awkward location where it is easy to accidentally flip if you happen to be turning off or on other breakers; 4, there is a switch for the gas system inside the trailer in a convenient location and many are confused about it's function [i.e. the dealer who told me it operated all the hot water heating functions - kind of like "Automatic" mode on some refrigerators that selects gas, battery or AC.]; 5, the cost of putting a switch -- that  yes is redundant -- in a convenient spot is minimal and would be much more understandable to the ordinary user.  

So, yes, such a switch is triple redundant, but so is the thermostatic switch for my furnace in the house.  There is no reason [except the NEC orientation requirement] that I couldn't go out in the snow to turn off and on my furnace or boiler [actually boilers have a required 3rd redundant switch usually painted red] instead of operating it from the convenience of my nice warm hallway thermostat and off/on switch there (more redundancy) or going into my garage or basement to turn it off an on there at the furnace.

Yes, from a technical person's point of view the redundancy is overkill, but from the lay person's point of view, or what we call in my biz the "ordinary and reasonable user," a clearly marked easy to find and operate, and inexpensive to install, switch may be more sensible. Ford Motor company learned this the hard way in order to save $15.40.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 2:33pm
Mccarter and lostagain—-
I am familiar with the suburban electrical switch that is supposed to be located in the water heater exterior panel. I had the same water heater with a switch in my 173. 

However, believe it or not, there is no switch in the exterior water heater compartment in my 2015 179. I have looked multiple times, even pulling off the warning stickers to check behind there is no switch.

So, I guess I have no choice except to use the circuit breaker to control the power. No problem, I can deal with that. I just thought it would add to the confusion.... er, conversation.
Vann

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 2:24pm
My apologies if perhaps I am restarting an argument but I don't get why one would need triple redundant switches in series (the cb, the switch on the water heater, and a third switch somewhere else)  for the same heating element? This is a travel trailer not a NASA spacecraft.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 1:49pm
Dave, sounds like you used a better system of protection than I did for the switch.  I'm cheap.  I used a piece of plumber's tape [the stuff with the holes in it] and fashioned a guard over the household light switch lever.  Since it's hidden in the compartment with the water heater, it's not likely that anyone will get at it.  I got the idea for the guard from the emergency on/off switch for our boiler in our New Jersey heating system.  Indeed, anyone with a little electrical knowledge could install such a switch.  Heck, it's so easy that even a lawyer could do it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2018 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by lostagain

Dave and I both reached the same solution and added a switch in the water heater circuit, between the breaker and the water heater.  He didn't say where he mounted his switch but for mine, I mounted it in the compartment where the water heater and furnace are located and clearly labeled it.  I also labeled all the breaker circuits.  We each put some kind of protection on the switch so that it wouldn't be accidentally flipped.  


Fred, I mounted this switch on the left side below the bed next to the electrical wall outlet located there. It's a simple on/off light switch mounted in a extended exterior outlet box (I guess that's what its called?) that has a protective cover that has to be lifted to turn the switch off or on. The wiring is simple run to the a junction box that's on the outside of the Suburban water heater that breaks the run from the circuit breaker to the heater switch. It's really a simple mod that anyone with a little electrical knowledge can do. It eliminated having any chance of the outside water heater door latch breaking from opening and closing it and the problem I've read about people having with the electrical switch on the water heater failing. Now I just leave that switch on at all times and operate the electric on/off from the switch I put inside.

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