GENERATORS??? |
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podwerkz
Senior Member Joined: 11 Mar 2019 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 966 |
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Topic: GENERATORS??? Posted: 02 Jul 2021 at 7:29pm |
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The math may be wrong on the chalkboard or the computer screen but in the real world the math is correct. Since typical gasoline engines and even typical flex-fuel engines are not optimized for burning a 90-10 blend (or any other blend) then yes...we get about 10 percent less range per tank, or 10% less mpg. I have verified this many times. |
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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jul 2021 at 5:52am | |
The science is not wrong. Since practically all (over 98%) of the gasoline sold in the US is E10 and has been for many years now, of course any modern vehicles are optimized to run on it. So unless you are driving around in something from the 80's or earlier (and probably not even then), you can expect around the 3-4% difference in fuel economy. That's what the USDOE reports, and what the manufacturer's engineering staff reports as well. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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campman
Senior Member Joined: 26 Mar 2021 Location: La Salle, MB Online Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 6:12am | |
So, ethanol reduces engine power on top of all the other damage to engines it can do if left untreated. In the case of any engine that is used sporadically it can kill them before you know it due to its hydroscopic nature...it draws water out of the fuel as well as from the ambient air around it(unless you take appropriate preventive steps). The more water in the air around it, the more it absorbs. High humidity means more water being absorbed into your fuel, sitting on the bottom of your tank.
For generators and other intermittent use motors you need to get as little of it in your small engines and tanks as possible, always treat your fuel to prevent the ethanol from separating from your gasoline and absorbing water with a good quality fuel stabilizer. Empty your carb (turn off your petcock/fuel shut off or run it out of fuel) when the generator is finished being used to further prevent gum/varnish deposits, keep your tank either completely full or empty for extended periods of time to further safeguard your fuel system and extend the life of your motor as less moist air comes in contact with your fuel. These are the best ways to get the most bang for your hard earned buck over the long term. Sta-bil, Seafoam, Phaseguard...all very good stabilizers and did I mention do the same for your boats, mowers, chainsaws, whipper-snippers, blowers, wood chippers and infrequently used cars trucks? Further examples of where to do the same thing and save yourself money, time and frustration. Fuel can go bad/skunky in only a couple of months and heat can make it break down even more quickly then that as well. Bad ethanol, bad. Now go back to your cornfield until you make something better of yourself! :-) Andy |
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Andy and Laurie
'16 F150 5.0 4X4 w/factory tow pkg '21 RP192 "If the women don't find you handsome...at least let them find you handy!" Red-Green |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 7:15am | |
Ethanol increases octane rating so it does not reduce engine power. It increases it. Without the ethanol your 87 octane E10 would be about 85 octane. But you have to burn it faster so it reduces mpg.
It is an oxygenating agent (like MBTE before it) so it reduces carbon monoxide production in engines. It is a whole lot more environmentally safe than MBTE was. So it's a good additive in modern auto engines which get used all the time. In small occasional use engines and older fuel systems where the ethanol can attack the materials it's bad. In high humidity environments it's bad because ethanol is hydrophilic. Keep your fuel containers and gas tanks full and replace the fuel every month or two. You can use the old stuff in you car. Want to change your E10 fuel to non-ethanol gas? Just add water and shake well. Then decant the gasoline off the top of the water/ethanol mix. Your problem will be what to do with the 100 proof of so mess you have left over. Don't drink it |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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chasl
Newbie Joined: 04 Mar 2021 Location: New Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 30 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 7:44am | |
Thanks for all the information in this post. I've learned a lot about gas and ethanol. In some places you can buy non-ethanol gas, but we don't have that option.
I've heard that ethanol in gas can degrade/decompose rubber, etc gaskets in small engines if left to sit. I haven't had this issue with my generator, but I run the carburetor dry before storing, and I use Sta-bil in the gas. I may try to remove the ethanol with the just add water, shake, and siphon technique. I would rather not put ethanol gasoline in the generator. I bought a Champion 3400 about 5 years ago, and used it a few times around the house (power outage) and for camping in our R-Pod. I have 2 Pb-acid flooded batteries, so I installed a 190W solar panel on top, and also purchased a Renology 200W solar to beef up so we won't need to use the generator for recharging batteries too often here in the sunny west. We use the generator to run our convection/microwave, and so my wife can use a blowdryer on her hair after showers. It will run the AC but we usually camp in high altitude and don't need to use it. One question about 85 octane. Is that ok to use in the small engine of the generator. I assume so but better ask.
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6326 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 8:25am | |
One of the reasons I purchased the dual-fuel Firman generator was so that I could run it on propane and not worry about ethanol or about carrying gasoline. I've only run it on propane and intend to do so. Propane does not generator quite as much power, but it burns much cleaner.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2595 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 8:26am | |
If you're worried about damage to the generator's engine components getting hurt by the ethanol, why not buy a dual fuel inverter generator (or convert it to dual fuel)? Our little used generator has never had a drop of gasoline in it. It is used very, very rarely, but I never have to worry about ethanol damage to the motor. Yes, there is a slight reduction in output, but that's a reasonable tradeoff for an engine that doesn't have stinky exhaust and the mess of adding gasoline to the engine fuel tank.
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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jul 2021 at 5:13pm | |
I wasn't serious about making your own non ethanol gas. Don't, it's dangerous, creates hazardous waste, reduces the fuel octane. The polymers in your fuel system can handle the ethanol, the stories you hear about ethanol eating rubber apply to old natural rubber fuel systems. I had an airplane that I couldn't run ethanol gas in because it would eat the (very expensive) fuel bladders.
+2 on running propane though. You will get a little less power depending on how the conversion kit is set up, and propane has about 12% less btu per gallon so you will burn more fuel accordingly but its worth it. You don't have to carry around gasoline, your engine stays much cleaner, you don't have to worry about fuel stabilization. All good. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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Colt
Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2019 Online Status: Offline Posts: 383 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Aug 2021 at 11:54am | |
From the Engineering Toolbox:
LHV of ethanol is 11,479 BTU/lb LHV of gasoline is 18,659 BTU/lb Ethanol has 61.5% of the energy of gasoline. Ethanol does have oxygen in its molecule, but only one Oxygen atom, and requires 6 O atoms to burn. While that's less than the 15 or so required for gasoline, it is still isn't a good source of Oxygen for combustion. Its primary function is to displace gasoline molecules and raise Octane rating allowing cheaper gasoline to be used as a base. Displacing gasoline molecules probably causes the exhaust gas to appear lean, causing in the vehicle's ECU to command more fuel to reach the 14.7 A/F ratio it is designed to hold, further increasing fuel consumption. I am always puzzled as to why more fuel consumption is eco-friendly. Fuel injection systems using E10 (with evaporative controls on the tank) are well sealed and mostly prevent oxygenation of the ethanol and water absorption. By now, all fuel systems are built with materials impervious to ethanol damage, so there is no worry there. However, carburetted systems in small engines are not sealed and cannot prevent oxidation of the ethanol, nor water absorption. That can easily corrode ferrous parts of the fuel system (tank, float bowl, ....) I learned the hard way not to use E10 in a carburetted 4-cyl motorcycle after I let it sit for 6 weeks over the winter. That bike ran well on E10, as long as you burned it out quickly. Bottom line, avoid E10 in any carb'ed engine and especially one that doesn't run several days a week. I am still disturbed by using a food source for fuel. Alas, the farm lobby likes the extra demand for corn and will not let the politicians stop it. |
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John
'16 R-Pod 180 |
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podwerkz
Senior Member Joined: 11 Mar 2019 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 966 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 2021 at 1:17pm | |
I did not say the science is wrong. But you are. Again. The EPA uses what is called 'certification gasoline' in mileage tests to arrive at the published and certified MPG numbers for each vehicles that they rate. Certification gasoline is E0. No ethanol. E0 burns more efficiently and effectively in an engine which the manufactures design to run on E0. Duh. Typical vehicle engines today are capable of operating (at reduced efficiency) on E10...but that is NOT the same as being optimized for it.
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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!
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