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Olddawgsrule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lithium Battery install ?
    Posted: 19 Oct 2019 at 9:20am
Did a search and read through a couple threads, yet not sure anyone has done it. I did see another is like I and having a separate LiPo battery to use for other consuming items and not touching the house batteries. Really extents dry camping in the woods (tough solar gain).

If you have done this, I'd like to hear just what & how you proceeded to switch out.

Here's what I think so far:
* The charge portion of the 'converter' has to be shut-off (dis-connected).
Here I wonder if that line could be used to run into a LiPo controller? Sounds way too easy..
* A 12v source of power to the LiPo charger. Solar while off-grid and though the converter (shore or TV sourced). 
* Dedicated LiPo charger

Questions are a few, yet the big one right now is the TV power coming back into the trailer. I assume it's run through the converter's battery controller and sent forward to the battery. Not any sort of direct connection, TV to TT battery.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2019 at 10:19am
I haven't converted my trailer to Li yet but I've designed and installed Li battery systems for other applications. Li batteries have a very different charge profile from lead acid batteries. They can catch fire if overcharged. So in general you should not try to use equipment set up for charging lead acid batteries to charge Li batteries. Following that safety rule:

1) You need a charger set up for Li batteries. The  ac circuit for the WFCO charger can be used to feed that charger.
2) You can charge the Li battery via solar. You will need a charge controller configured for Li batteries.
3) You shouldn't try to charge a Li battery directly from the TV lead acid battery system. You can get a dc dc converter that will allow the alternator to charge the Li battery. 

All the above adds significant cost to the already pricey Li battery itself of course. 

Also beware that you should not try to charge a Li battery when it is below freezing. So, you will probably want to mount it in the interior of the trailer where you can keep it warm.  Since it doesn't outgas like a lead acid battery there's nothing wrong with doing that. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2019 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by offgrid

I haven't converted my trailer to Li yet but I've designed and installed Li battery systems for other applications. Li batteries have a very different charge profile from lead acid batteries. They can catch fire if overcharged. So in general you should not try to use equipment set up for charging lead acid batteries to charge Li batteries. Following that safety rule:

1) You need a charger set up for Li batteries. The  ac circuit for the WFCO charger can be used to feed that charger.
2) You can charge the Li battery via solar. You will need a charge controller configured for Li batteries.
3) You shouldn't try to charge a Li battery directly from the TV lead acid battery system. You can get a dc dc converter that will allow the alternator to charge the Li battery. 

All the above adds significant cost to the already pricey Li battery itself of course. 

Also beware that you should not try to charge a Li battery when it is below freezing. So, you will probably want to mount it in the interior of the trailer where you can keep it warm.  Since it doesn't outgas like a lead acid battery there's nothing wrong with doing that. 

I have my LiPo battery, covered.
I have a solar charge controller, covered.

I'd like to use the solar controller to to charge from the Pod's 12v system. I figure I should be able to do that..

Is it feasible to use the existing battery cables?  Converter out (battery cables) > LiPo controller > LiPo battery? I would believe the LiPo controller now takes control and power is sent back as normal when dry-camping. By doing this, the TV would also charge through the existing cables.

I'm looking at using the Heater/hot water compartment. I'm also thinking I could utilize the Solar-on-the-side lines for an easy solar hookup. 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2019 at 2:05pm
You already have a solar charge controller set up for Li battery charging?

That’s good for the solar but you can’t use a solar charge controller to charge from one battery to another. Solar modules are current sources, meaning that they will provide a limited amount of current (depending on how much sun they’re getting). They will provide current at a range of voltages, so the charge controller can decide what the output voltage limit will be for the battery type you’re using.

Batteries are the opposite, they provide a nearly unlimited amount of current at a fixed voltage. A solar charge controller is unable to change that voltage. If the battery you’re charging is at a lower voltage than the source battery the charge controller will try to supply all the current available, which is a lot, so it will either blow a fuse or burn up. If the battery being charged is at a higher voltage than the source battery the controller will supply no current at all.

Dc to dc converters can charge one battery from another by stepping the input voltage up or down to what you have set the output voltage to, while also limiting the current. But if you try do that youll wind up discharging your supply battery unless you shut off the dc dc converter to protect it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2019 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by offgrid

You already have a solar charge controller set up for Li battery charging?

That’s good for the solar but you can’t use a solar charge controller to charge from one battery to another. Solar modules are current sources, meaning that they will provide a limited amount of current (depending on how much sun they’re getting). They will provide current at a range of voltages, so the charge controller can decide what the output voltage limit will be for the battery type you’re using.

Batteries are the opposite, they provide a nearly unlimited amount of current at a fixed voltage. A solar charge controller is unable to change that voltage. If the battery you’re charging is at a lower voltage than the source battery the charge controller will try to supply all the current available, which is a lot, so it will either blow a fuse or burn up. If the battery being charged is at a higher voltage than the source battery the controller will supply no current at all.

Dc to dc converters can charge one battery from another by stepping the input voltage up or down to what you have set the output voltage to, while also limiting the current. But if you try do that youll wind up discharging your supply battery unless you shut off the dc dc converter to protect it.

I have one out at the pond moving water as sunlight hits those panels. That moves water to a container (uphill) with a small dc pump and that water I've used to irrigate with. With that I could a Proof-of-theory and buy another for the trailer.

I think you mis-understood.. I'm not going battery to battery. Converter output (the battery cables) to LiPo controller to Lipo battery. My dual 6v's are gone. Only the LiPo will exist. 
What worries me is the effect (if any) of grabbing the power source off the converter and sending it to another controller (the LiPo controller). I not seeing a conflict, does mean there isn't one, just not seeing it.

Maybe I'm mis-understanding something here.. Not like that hasn't happened before...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2019 at 6:52am
Ok, I think maybe I understand but let me play it back. You want to replace the rpod House battery with lithium. You want to repurpose a solar charge controller you are presently using to charge a Li battery running a water pump. You are wanting to know if there are any issues if you place that charge controller between the existing battery cables and the new Li battery?

The main battery cables connect the battery to a buss which is in turn connected to the house 12v loads and to the WFCO charger via fuses in your panel. Since current needs to flow both ways in the battery cables that would not be a good place for the solar charge controller. If that controller is set up for the Li battery you can place it in the dedicated Zamp solar charge circuit feeding from the solar connection on the side of the trailer, if you have one,

If you want to charge your Li battery from an ac source I would not recommend using the wfco. It is set up for PbA batteries and is a poorly regulated charger so you could wind up with excessive voltage on the Li battery, which is very bad. Check the charging specs for your Li battery and get an appropriate charger.

You will also need to disable your tow vehicle charging circuit, or replace it with something else like a dc dc converter. Li batteries are actually easy to charge, you don’t need a fancy multistage charger like you do for PbA, but you must not overcharge them, ever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2019 at 9:30am
Originally posted by offgrid

Ok, I think maybe I understand but let me play it back. You want to replace the rpod House battery with lithium. You want to repurpose a solar charge controller you are presently using to charge a Li battery running a water pump. You are wanting to know if there are any issues if you place that charge controller between the existing battery cables and the new Li battery?

The main battery cables connect the battery to a buss which is in turn connected to the house 12v loads and to the WFCO charger via fuses in your panel. Since current needs to flow both ways in the battery cables that would not be a good place for the solar charge controller. If that controller is set up for the Li battery you can place it in the dedicated Zamp solar charge circuit feeding from the solar connection on the side of the trailer, if you have one,

If you want to charge your Li battery from an ac source I would not recommend using the wfco. It is set up for PbA batteries and is a poorly regulated charger so you could wind up with excessive voltage on the Li battery, which is very bad. Check the charging specs for your Li battery and get an appropriate charger.

You will also need to disable your tow vehicle charging circuit, or replace it with something else like a dc dc converter. Li batteries are actually easy to charge, you don’t need a fancy multistage charger like you do for PbA, but you must not overcharge them, ever.

"Since current needs to flow both ways in the battery cables that would not be a good place for the solar charge controller. "

That's the part I thought would be a problem. The return side. Talking with a EE friend there is a way, yet becoming a PITA to make it work. For $180 it's probably better to just get a Progressive Dynamic's unit. 

"You will also need to disable your tow vehicle charging circuit"

I'm hoping to be emailed a wiring diagram for the PD unit I'm looking at. I have always assumed the TV charging/power goes through the exist WFCO controller. If I go PD, would not that still be happening? 

Going to bring my LiPo over to my EE friend and let him have a closer look. It has a built in charger/balancer. We'll open it up and he'll have a closer look at it. He has some thoughts of how to implement this LiPo, yet he needs a real good look-see first. 

I'll get back to you after we meet up next week.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 8:05am
The tow vehicle charging circuit doesn’t go through the wfco battery charger. That just runs from an ac source. When you connect your tv to the trailer you are making a direct connection between the two 12v systems. That works ok because they are both lead acid batteries and the resistance of the wire runs limits the current flowing between the two even if one battery is at a lower voltage than the other. The same direct connection won’t work so well with two different battery chemistries. There are dc dc converters available that can do the job correctly and safely but they aren’t cheap.

The electronics in your Li battery are there to balance the charge on the individual cells. Eventually Li cells become unevenly charged because they never get floated or equalized like they do in a PbA battery. That circuit won’t replace a proper charge controller although some of them do have a high voltage cutoff built in as a safety backup.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 12:46pm
Response from WFCO
"The converter you have is not an actual lithium converter but will charge to approx.. 90 to 95%.  We do not have a direct replacement converter that is lithium at this time."

We already know it's not a lithium charger. Sorry to see they don't have a add-on or direct replacement. I'm awaiting response now from Progressive Dynamic's. Believe they do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 3:10pm
Wow....dont get me started....

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