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lostagain View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Battery current draw
    Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 1:10pm
Running the heater in the morning for about a half hour or so, using our LED lights for maybe 4 hours (a problem with the 172 is it doesn't have a lot of windows, thus not a lot of ambient light), and charging the cell phones and Macbook, it would be hard to get up to 400 watt-hours in a day.  For us, by the end of the solar charging day, our batteries are fully charged and the controller has cut down to a trickle charge.  Thus, for us we're living the life of Riley on the output of our 100 W solar panel.

It's a question of how much power you are consuming and how balance consumption with recharging.  If you use 1000 watt-hours a day, then you'll need a solar (or other charging) system that has that capacity.    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 1:41pm
Thanks for the insights.  Which charge controller are you using?

I expect that we will be setting the thermostat at about 50 degrees (during the night only in weather averaging mid-40s during the day, low 20s at night.  Reading all the responses thus far, I'm leaning toward buying a PV charging system.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 6:59pm
I got the panel, cable and controller from Windy Nation in Ventura CA.  The controller is branded with their company name. I don't know who makes it.  It will handle more than one panel.  

Yes, with that cold, you're going to need some power to run the furnace.  We've had temps in the 20's on some mornings with frost on the meadow grass, and it was no problem getting the pod up to a comfortable temperature pretty quickly.  Taking a leak in the night, on the other hand, is a little chilly, but with a warm bed and blankets, you recover quickly.
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 6:55am
All, the best way to do your energy budget for off grid solar is in amphours. It is misleading to do it in watt hours because a 100 watt solar module for example does not produce 100 watts for a 100 watt load in one hour of sunshine. its much less. 

So start by estimating how many amphours a day you need. You need to know the current draw on each item and the daily hours of operation for each. Multiply then add. It sounds hard but its actually pretty easy.  Here is an example showing my summertime use. Lots of amhours for fans because its hot in NC in the summer. In the cooler months fans will be off but heater will be on so it works out to be a bit less but similar. Lights are really a minimal part of the load. I have a 12V TV which is why I've included that. Easy mod if you want to watch TV in the pod off grid and save lots of energy. 

item dc current qty hours/day amphours/day
single led lite 0.2 4.0 2 1.6
dual led lite 0.4 1.0 2 0.8
bath lite 0.3 1.0 0.2 0.06
outside lite 1.4 1.0 0.1 0.14
small fan 0.5 2.0 24.0 24
fantastic fan h 2.8 1.0 0.0 0
fantastic fan m 1.9 2.0 0 0
fantastic fan l 1.3 1.0 24 31.2
fridge 12V 10.7 1.0 0 0
water pump 5.0 1.0 0.2 1
TV  12V 1.5 1.0 4 6
Radio 0.4 1.0 24 9.6
heater on 2.0 1.0 0 0
water heater on  0.6 1.0 1 0.6
total 75.0

Next, battery capacity. You can see that I have a total of about 75 amphours per day. As we don't want to bring our batteries below about 50%, I need a minimum of 150 amphours to get through one day without charging. If you want to go 100% solar and never charge from your vehicle or a generator, you will need about 2-4 days storage in summer depending on where you live. While you never get a day with zero solar output, this 2-4 days gets you through longer periods of cloudy or stormy weather. I have 220Ah battery storage (dual 6V GC2's) for 110AH useable and so expect to need to use my genny fairly frequently in cloudy weather. 


On to solar sizing. A 100 watt module will not be the right answer for everyone. Your mileage will vary. The variation depends on several factors. Besides your actual loads as above, it depends on the time of year, the region you live in, whether you camp under trees or not, and whether you are manually moving around a portable solar module and keeping it pointing at the sun all day or (if you're lazy like me) have them permanently mounted to the trailer roof. 

You can figure that a 100 watt solar module will deliver about 6-7Ah for your loads from an hour of full direct (perpendicular) sunshine.  This is not 100 watts/12 volts=8.3A because of the way solar modules are rated and the charge/discharge losses in the battery.  So if you have a perfectly clear cloudless day, no tree or other shading and keep your module tilted toward the sun, moving it from east to west over the course of the day, you might get 50 amp hours from it. Where I live in the mid atlantic with solar flat on the roof I get about 30 amphours on a good summer day from 100 watts. If I'm not under trees (which I often am). So, I plan on installing a 350 watt module on the roof of my rPod, which should give my about 100 amphours a day in summer when not under the tree canopy. You can get a 350 watt module for under $200 now so why not?  I'll revert to the genny or TV charging when forest camping as needed. 

To mitigate the genny noise and smell you can get a nice 2kw inverter-generator which runs very quietly, convert it to propane, and put it  and a 20lb tank far from your campsite on a 100 ft extension cord.  That's what I do, no stink of gasoline, and I can barely hear it. Running it once a day in late afternoon/early evening when everyone is making noise and cooking helps as well.  I don't fell bad about running mine, its a lot quieter compared to the family in the next campsite with the shrieking kids and barking dogs Angry




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 8:35am
I don't know if this apply's to other models. But I discovered that on my 189 if I pull the lowest green 30a fuze I have no 12v to anything. Makes a quick easy way to pull power when your going to want it back on shortly.

I have used it a few times when wiring new 12v/USB plugin's in our pod.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 8:42am
offgrid, Thanks for taking the time to put together a thorough analysis of energy use and how it relates to solar charging.  What is obvious is that everyone's electrons may vary.  For some, clearly, a 100W solar panel will be hopelessly inadequate, while for others who minimize the use of electricity, they can even lend a few electrons to their neighbors.  It all depends on one's style of camping, access to sunlight, shade, and whether you can move your panels around to optimize energy capture. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 9:09am
Originally posted by offgrid

All, the best way to do your energy budget for off grid solar is in amphours. It is misleading to do it in watt hours because a 100 watt solar module for example does not produce 100 watts for a 100 watt load in one hour of sunshine. its much less.
I disagree. I convert everything to watts and watt-hours because it represents POWER. Amps and volts are variable. The battery is never 12 volts, but always something between 12 and 14.5 volts, and the amps vary accordingly.

Once you convert everything to watts, then you understand how much POWER you need. You don't need to think about whether you have 6 volt, 12 volt or 2 volt batteries, you can treat each battery as a bucket full of watts. Much simpler to convert to watts and work accordingly. Sure panels don't put out 100 watts, but we often see 80% of that on our solar installations. When the sun isn't ideal, maybe between 50 and 80 percent, but still it's power.

That's why appliances, lights, and generators are all sized in terms of watts. Watts rule.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 6:00am
Nope GlueGuy, sorry. 

I've been sizing off grid PV systems professionally for going on 40 years so I think I know a little about it. 

The reason for sizing battery based systems using amp hours is because batteries do not charge and discharge at the same voltage. If you calculate watt hours in and expect to get the same watt hours out of a battery you will be overestimating your system performance substantially. In other words, it is exactly because voltages vary throughout the charge/discharge cycle that watthours are not the way to do the sizing calcs when batteries are involved.  

Batteries do deliver amp hours back out that are fed in. In physics terms they're coulombic efficiency (electrons out/electrons in) is close to 100%.  So if you work in amp hours you don't need to be concerned about voltage differences and changes. 

The reason it is rare to ever get more than 80-85% of rated power out of a PV module is because PV devices vary in voltage significantly with temperature. The manufacturer's ratings are based on measurements at 25C (room temperature). Even if the ambient outdoor temp is 25C, the modules will heat up in full sunlight by about another 25-30C. That will result in a performance reduction of about 12-15%. 

But here again, the max power current (Imp) of the module doesn't change significantly with temperature, only the voltage. So if you are using a PV module designed for 12V battery charging (not one of the large high voltage commercial modules) the Imp of the module can be used to determine the amp hours delivered to the battery without having to run complicated temperature derate calculations.  

I hope that explanation makes sense. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 6:19am
That's it exactly lostagain. I'm 100% in favor of choosing solar, if I wasn't I wouldn't have spent my entire career working on commercializing it.

But one thing that I've found turns people off to trying solar or really any other new (to them) technology, is if they feel they are being oversold on it. Nothing in life is that simple, and everyone's situation is a little different.

So consider your actual needs, expectations, and situation, then make the choice that's right for you. For some it will be solar only, others generator or TV charging only, and yet others (like me) will be best off with a hybrid solution. 






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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 9:01am
offgrid and GlueGuy, I really enjoy reading your posts.  I'm anxiously awaiting GlueGuy's reply on watts vs. amps.  I don't know why, but they didn't teach me any of that stuff in law school.  It's really interesting. Reminds me of my litigation days when we had expert witnesses clashing with different analyses of some injury causing event and I had to cross-examine the other side's expert but I didn't understand squat about the science involved.

Speaking of solar, here in NV we have a ballot measure that, if it passes, will require 50 of our energy from renewable sources, in effect solar, by 2030.  There are already discussions of setting up monster solar arrays in our desert which they claim can generate huge amounts of watts or amps (?).  Or, in my book, sending "gazillions" of sparky electrons scurrying all over NV, including to the 30 amp plug at my house where our Pod is plugged in at the moment.  
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost
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