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GlueGuy View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Battery current draw
    Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 9:07am
Then we will have to agree to disagree offgrid. I have over a decade sizing, building, and using solar systems, and I always work in watts. This is precisely because of the reasons you mention. Because the voltage varies, the amp-hours also vary. Voltage goes down, amps go up (or the voltage goes up, and the amps go down), but the watts used and the watts required will stay the same. I go for simple, and the simplest way for me to plan and use is by using watts.

Amp-hours gives you no clue about the power because it is only a measure of electron flow. It's meaningless unless you know the voltage.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 9:16am
I think the proper measurement instead of watts or amps is phlogiston.  It's much easier to quantify.  Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 10:09am
Ok GlueGuy, we will disagree and move on. But ha ha, my 38 years beats your 10 LOL

If you spent your decade designing grid tie PV systems than watts are the way to go. But if you are designing battery based systems, amp hours works better and is much simpler. The nominal voltage is known and is established by the battery, so there is no reason for confusion on that.

If you do use watts and are doing it correctly,  and I certainly agree that can be done, then you must use derates for battery round trip efficiency and PV module temperature. I expect that if you take a look at those derates you will find that they match up very closely with the amp hour approach. If you are not derating when working in watts and watt hours then you will be overestimating system performance. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 10:28am
Originally posted by offgrid

Ok GlueGuy, we will disagree and move on. But ha ha, my 38 years beats your 10 LOL

If you spent your decade designing grid tie PV systems than watts are the way to go. But if you are designing battery based systems, amp hours works better and is much simpler. The nominal voltage is known and is established by the battery, so there is no reason for confusion on that.

If you do use watts and are doing it correctly,  and I certainly agree that can be done, then you must use derates for battery round trip efficiency and PV module temperature. I expect that if you take a look at those derates you will find that they match up very closely with the amp hour approach. If you are not derating when working in watts and watt hours then you will be overestimating system performance.
Well. I did learn electrical engineering in 1969. So that is 49 years. Touche! I just had a brief interlude in the computer business.

We use telemetry on our solar installations. We monitor both voltage and current, and our usage graphs display in watts in vs watts out. Ohm's law rules!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 1:53pm
I like pie! (P=IE). Power equals current times volts. Amp-hours is for sizing batteries, power is for sizing systems.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2018 at 3:45pm
Ya got me beat in years since graduation but I won’t yield on solar experience...

Like I said, you can use watts and watt hours to do solar sizing, as long as you use the appropriate derate factors for battery and PV module performance. It’s just much easier using amp hours.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2018 at 5:27am
Exactly! You size batteries by amp hours. Battery state of charge is determined by amp hours, not watt hours. Now we're making progress!

Batteries are the core energy storage element of any off grid power system. Batteries rule, voltage is established by the battery. Everything else is either a load drawing current from or a source feeding current into that energy storage element. The source could be (and in the case of our trailers, is frequently a hybrid of all three) a battery charger, an alternator, or a PV module. It's all about the amp hours clocking in and out. 

So, in order to use amp hours to size the battery but watt hours for the loads and power generation sources you have to use I=P/V to convert units at some point into amps and amp hours so you know what your battery state of charge is.  And you have to know the battery voltage to do that if you work in watts and watt hours. That voltage is not the same during charge and discharge cycles. You don't need to worry about that if you're working in amps and amp hours. Takes care of itself. 

So, I'm still waiting to hear from those of you who prefer to work in watts and watt hours, how you are dealing with variable battery voltage? Are you using derate factors for battery round trip efficiency? What are they? How about for PV charge performance? Temperature derates? Do you figure your other charge sources in watts too?  Alternator output? Battery charger output? And please don't tell me you just use ohm's law. Of course you do. But things aren't quite that simple....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2018 at 5:38am
BTW, I've interviewed numerous EE grads who couldn't explain ohm's law to me. They could write C++ code in their sleep though, but what that has to do with electrical engineering is beyond me. Do they even train anyone in electrical power systems engineering anymore? 

In case you're wondering, my degree is in physics, which means I know just enough to be dangerous in all kinds of areas. Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2018 at 1:00pm
This is all very educational, but, I'm still not sure how much power I need.  Based on my desire to run the set the thermostat to 50 degrees on 20-30 degree nights it sounds like a 100 watt panel is not going to be enough.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2018 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Colorado r-pod guy

This is all very educational, but, I'm still not sure how much power I need.  Based on my desire to run the set the thermostat to 50 degrees on 20-30 degree nights it sounds like a 100 watt panel is not going to be enough.


Correct. If you are going to be out for more then 2 nights, you need more storage and more charge capacity.

The most storage you can put on the tongue, without modifications, is a pair of GC2 6v batteries wired in series. Very popular mod. For recharging, a 120watt or larger system, preferably portable so you can do as much as you can to maximize sun angle.

What I would recommend, is to do the GC2's first, $225 or so for the whole shebang, and go out and see how well just that mod will do for the way you intend to camp. Remember during the testing and learning phase, a set of jumper cables and your truck will recharge you to 80-85% pretty darn fast if needed. You may find that for the number of days you want to be out and the conditions, just the battery upgrade will be enough. Going to dual GC's from the standard group 24 12v battery will net you nearly 4x the usable amps, or watts, or blower fan revolutions, or whatever method of measuring your needs you choose to use.

Always remember, there is always more then one way to skin a cat, and while there may be a "perfect and correct way", as long as YOU are happy with how the cat got skinned, it's all good. It's camping, not a Mars mission. Good enough, is in fact, good enough.
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