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offgrid View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Concept for cold weather use of rPod water systems
    Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 7:28am
All, I'm developing a plan for normal use of the cold water systems in my 179 during freezing conditions. 

Yes I know that you can dry camp and/or use RV antifreeze to mitigate freezing issues, but that is not the objective here. And I'm not trying to create something that would work at sub zero F temps, my target would be around 10-15 F/-10 C. It never gets colder than that where I live or would plan to camp. I just wanted to get some thoughts on my concept prior to proceeding, in case I'm missing something, so if you're willing to take the time to read through what follows I'd appreciate it. 

Obviously, a heating system would be needed for the fresh, black, and gray tanks and their drain lines. And also, it would be necessary to maintain the temp above freezing in the rPod interior as well. That's easy, there is a furnace for that purpose when off grid and a cube heater can be used when plugged in.

The typical way to heat the tanks in the RV industry is to either enclose and insulate the bottom of the RV and blow warm air through it to maintain tank temperature, and/or to use heating pads for the tanks and drains. I don't want to do either of these things for two reasons. First, electric elements are out for me because I rarely if ever camp with hookups and electric heating uses far too much energy for off grid use.  Second, I think it would be very difficult to create an enclosed insulated space under a pod that was both sealed against external air leaks and would also have enough space around the tanks for warm air circulation. 

So, I want to instead heat with hot water from the water heater. The heat source can then be propane while off grid and electric when plugged in at home, as that is already in place. My plan is to install a small 12Vdc circulator pump between the hot and cold water lines, as is done all the time for instant hot water systems. The circ pump would provide a small pressure differential on thermostat demand to heat the tanks via the hot water lines, with return via the cold lines. As a bonus, the pressure water lines would also stay warm just as they do in a home instant hot water heating system.

To transfer heat to the tanks and drain lines I would run probably a 3/8 copper line inside each drain line from directly behind the dump valves up to the elbows where the drains enter the tanks. That would provide for direct heat exchange to the water in the drain lines which would in turn circulate by natural convection (thermosiphon) to the tanks. I would change out the 1 1/2 in gray tank dump line for a 3 inch one while I was doing this both because the small pipe is I think too small to support a good thermosiphon loop and just to have the two heat exchangers be identical. Besides, that line drains too slow now anyway.  I would just make up two new complete drain assemblies so I wasn't fussing around with stinky old drain lines. The copper lines would be placed against the upper inside surface of the drain lines both to enhance the thermosiphon action and to not interfere with solids drainage. FR conveniently provides low point hot and cold winterizing drain lines adjacent to the two tanks to connect the copper lines to using pex. 

The fresh water tank would need to be done differently both because the pump feed line needs to be protected and because there is no large opening to connect a thermosiphon to the bottom of the tank with, so for that tank I would use a thermostatically controlled 12V solenoid valve and simply feed hot water into the tank drain line when the tstat called for heat. Very little hot water would be needed for this, and the feed line to the pump would get warmed simultaneously whenever the solenoid valve was open to replace the water entering the bottom of the tank. 

Of course, I would still have to insulate the bottom of the pod and the drain lines to reduce thermal losses but I could just use a closed cell foam spray kit for this as I'm not trying to make an air chamber.  I would also install cutoff valves for the outdoor shower to winterize that, I don't see taking outside showers when its freezing out Thumbs Down

The spray foam kit would be most of the cost for this mod because all the other parts are simple plumbing parts and a low cost water circ pump and solenoid valve. The little 12V digital thermostats (I would need 3) are about $10 each on Amazon. I think the whole thing could be done for probably less than $500 and would greatly expand the utilization of the rPod. 

If you got this far thanks for taking the time and I'd appreciate any constructive feedback. 


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CharlieM View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 8:56am
I made similar mods to my Camplite 21RBS. I utilized the onboard WH and the existing onboard pump with a timer to circulate HW throughout the piping system.All exposed supply piping was first insulated. Careful examination of the existing plumbing reveled the exposed hot and cold pipe runs were adjacent such that I could wrap most runs in a common insulation. This allowed the circulating hot water to heat the cold water pipes as well. A timer controlled solenoid valve took HW from the furthest fixture, the kitchen, and dumped it back into the FW tank, thus heating the FW tank. I didn't treat the waste tanks since they are more easily handled with antifreeze. The attached links may give you some ideas for you project. Your concept of circulating HW from the existing WH is sound and an excellent starting point. PM me if you need more details.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 10:23am
Seems to me that it might be easier to buy a 4 season trailer.  Unless you do all the work yourself, the labor alone would exceed the value of the Pod.  And there is a lot of stuff that could fail leading to something freezing, and you wouldn't necessarily know until it was too late.  

Personally, I think we have to recognize the limitations of a 3 season light weight trailer and just enjoy what we have.  The anti freezing suggestions of offgrid are really cool and, provided nothing fails, would probably keep the water and drain system from freezing, but it doesn't eliminate the fact that the R value of the walls is a smidge over 5 and that's not very much to retain heat.  And, for the areas that have the heater, water heater, and refrigerator, the R value is <1; just little metal doors, open vents, and 1/8" plywood on the inside of the trailer.  That's a lot of heat loss potential.  

I don't mean to be a contrary one [well actually I do as I'm just a grumpy old man], but trying to turn an r-Pod into something it isn't, is just a hole in an RV park into which you throw money.  Every time you beef up some element, all you do is transfer the weak link in system to another component.  If you put a 6,000 axle under the frame, you still have a frame designed for loads in the range of the GVW.  You're just moving the weak link in the chain to another spot.  ....And, we haven't even talked about driving in the snow and ice with a trailer.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 12:22pm
lostagain, for sure I would do all the work myself, I’m retired anyway so what else do I have to do?   So I value my time by the fun I’m having (or not), as with any other hobby. For me this would be an interesting engineering excercise if nothing else.

I’m not interested in getting a bigger heavier “4 season” trailer because then I would have to get a heavier tow vehicle which I wouldn’t want to drive around in the other 90% of the time......besides, I’ve looked at some of those so called”arctic” packages and they’re not much more than a sheet of corrugated plastic stuff.

Anyhow, you raise a good point about the less well insulated rPod locations, I would have to be sure those were well insulated when I foamed the bottom.

I found out the other day that apparently FR has deliberately derated a 4400 lb axle to 3500. To me that’s vsluable information as that was the load limiting factor. Of course that just moves the ultimate design limit somewhere else but if you’re only looking for a couple hundred pounds then that can be ok.

CharlieM thanks much for sharing your experience and support, I need to spend some time studying your design more closely after which I might have some questions for you if you’re ok with that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by offgrid


CharlieM thanks much for sharing your experience and support, I need to spend some time studying your design more closely after which I might have some questions for you if you’re ok with that.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2018 at 9:17pm
offgrid, Yes, I fully understand the recreational value of doing work on your Pod.  Heck, I get as much enjoyment puttering around on it as I do going places.  It's like my old Newport 30 II, elegantly simple, yet utterly functional.  What do you figure the cost of materials for the pumps, tubing, etc. to heat the water tanks and such?  

For our Pod, in the world of RV's it's old and I hesitate to sink a lot of money into it except to keep it functioning well.  We're fortunate in that if we want to camp in the winter, all we have to do is cross the Sierra Nevada mountains on a nice day and go to the CA coast.  No worries about freezing there and it only takes a few minutes to winterize for the trip home and alcohol antifreeze is not costly.  

Another thing that concerns me about winter camping is driving a trailer in the snow.  I know people do it all the time, but there are a lot of accidents too.  And putting chains on the TV and Trailer, as is required at least in NV and CA is far, far too much work for my petite wife.  I don't think I could convincer her to do it.  In fact I have a hard time convincing her to go camping when it's just a little nippy outside.  

It's nice to know that the Pods have an axle that is actually stronger than the stated rating.  I've jammed a lot of stuff in the trailer before for long trips, both in the back of the truck and the trailer and have never worried about overloading, even with the water tank full.  Everything is stable and appears to be balanced with the WDH.  The Dakota seems to manage it fine, though up really steep hills, I sometimes wish I had a diesel.  It's embarrassing to get passed by a 18 wheeler.  


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2018 at 4:17am
lostagain, I'm estimating under $500 for everything except the closed cell foam kit. Small circ pump, solenoid valve, some pex fittings and tubing, some 3 inch PVC drain line parts, a couple of RV waste valves, 10 ft of 3/8 copper tubing, some pipe insulation, 3 12V thermostat boards. Probably I'm not thinking of a few things yet. BTW, the circ pump and solenoid valve are very reliable componentry from the hydronics heating industry, so I feel pretty confident that I can get a reliable system if I can get comfortable with the thermostat boards. 

The closed cell foam kit will be the most expensive item. I want to add about 1 inch of insulation to the entire bottom of the trailer and the tanks. That's roughly 100 board feet and a 150 board ft kit looks like its about $400 on Amazon. 

I used to live in Santa Cruz and never used the air conditioning or winterized the class A RV I had back then. If it was summer and hot in the valley we either camped on the coast or above 5000 ft in the Sierras. In the winter we stayed on the coast. 

Where I live here it rarely freezes, but it does occasionally. Just a bit colder than Santa Cruz, enough that you need to deal with freezing but not enough that I feel like I want to fully winterize. But to go somewhere else in the winter here, say to Florida, we would be exposed to significantly more cold temps inland while enroute. 

Yeah I know about snow in the Sierras. Snow is different here in the east. Part of life. No one uses chains. Unheard of. People do run winter tires if they're further north or in the mountains. Use lots of sand and salt. If there is a heavy snowfall you just don't travel till the roads get plowed and treated unless you absolutely have to.  Really heavy snow things shut down. So, I'm not planning on any travel with the rPod in severe conditions. 

Don't count on your particular axle being higher rated, FR uses both Dexter and Lippert axles and probably more than one version of each. If you want to know for sure, get the model number (Lippert calls it the variant number, mine is 165646) off the axle label and call the axle manufacturer.  

You need to ask the question carefully though, if I had asked Lippert what the axle rating was on mine they would have correctly said 3500 lbs. But when I asked them what the next higher rated axle was, could I buy that, and what the differences were they said it was only the label but they'd be happy to sell me one. Needless to say, I didn't place an order.LOL


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2018 at 7:11am
Originally posted by lostagain

Personally, I think we have to recognize the limitations of a 3 season light weight trailer and just enjoy what we have.  ... I don't mean to be a contrary one [well actually I do as I'm just a grumpy old man], but trying to turn an r-Pod into something it isn't, is just a hole in an RV park into which you throw money.   ....And, we haven't even talked about driving in the snow and ice with a trailer. 

Altho I'd like to have a 4-season camper too, I agree with all of the above. 

If you have camped in the winter, enough said. If you haven't, another factor is condensation and it's mitigation. Condensation turns into ice in odd places which then expands and bad things happen, and then there is also mould formation from the condensation, perhaps not a problem until the next spring, but ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2018 at 7:21am
CharlieM,

I read through your links and found them very useful. I have a couple of questions.

Looks like the solenoid part of your system is very similar to what I plan to do, other than I'm thinking of using a thermostat rather than a timer and will be dumping the water back into the fresh water tank. How did the timer work out for you, did you do any testing to determine your cycle times? Did you consider a thermostat and if so, what made you decide on the timer approach? Also, do you recall what solenoid you used?

I'm planning to use the solenoid only to heat the fresh water tank and the pressure pump suction line (because feedwater would return to the system through that line whenever the solenoid was energized). 

For the hot and cold water lines as well as the gray and black tanks I'm planning a circulator pump, just connected between the hot and cold lines at the water heater. This is where the circulators are usually placed in residential instant hot water systems. The circ pump is left running in those (its tiny) and generally a temp sensitive wax valve is placed across the hot and cold lines at the farthest point in each plumbing loop. This keeps both hot and cold lines warm. I basically want to substitute the tank drain heat exchangers I plan to make for the wax valves and turn the pump on and off via a thermostat(s) to save energy rather than just leave it running. 

Looking at the way the rPod's fresh water plumbing is laid out relative to your Camplite one benefit of the rPod is that all the hot and cold feed lines are inside the camper except for the two sets of low point drains. If I tee off the hot and return to the I think that should keep all the fresh water plumbing warm. Do you agree?  My biggest concern was the low point drains themselves which would have to stick out of the insulation a little. It sounds like you had the same potential concern but never had a freezing problem at those points with your system?

Thanks again!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2018 at 9:38am
The new T@B's that are built by nucamp are almost the same as a pod, a tiny bit smaller, but seriously well thought out and built. They have a heated underbelly from what the salesman told me. They run just under 3000 pounds. Considering the size, they have utilized the space incredibly well. My only complaint was the price, they are about 10,000 (about 26,000) more with built in solar panels and built in 200w inverter. If you haven't seen one, it's really worth a look. The storage is really surprising how much there is.
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