Tow Vehicle - 2015 Toyota Highlander LEPlus - R-pod Owners Forum

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offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
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Posts: 5290

Topic: Tow Vehicle - 2015 Toyota Highlander LEPlus
Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 3:44am

doxielover, sorry for your dillemma, and even more sorry that we're causing you more stress with our little internal forum debates.

You'll find that everyone has their favorite tow vehicle, its kind of like sports teams. Heck, we even like to argue about the pros and cons of rDomes on here.

Despite some of the opinions expressed here, plenty of folks happily tow rPods with Highlanders and similar vehicles. Others wouldn't tow a tiny yard trailer with anything smaller than a 3/4 ton pickup. And most folks wind up changing vehicles as they gain experience, so what you're going through is not that unusual.

So please keep plodding forward, you'll get to a good place in the end. My advice when you are in discussions with your dealer is to focus on the misleading sales pitch you got regarding tow rating of your Highlander, rather than the AWD. Not that you don't want the AWD, but that will likely come just because a FWD Highlander with the 5000 lb tow package is going to be a rare bird. If in the end they offer to find you a FWD one, THEN tell them you want the AWD as well.

Good luck!

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 4:56am

doxielover, so you never have to find out the hard way again that a salesperson/owner has misrepresented a vehicle to you, here's a little tip: write down the VIN. It will be on the paperwork but also you can confirm that the same number is on the driver's door sticker or on the front of the dash where it meets the windshield on the driver's side. Call the parts department of any dealer for that make, read them the VIN, and they will be able to look up exactly what came from the factory on that vehicle. Saves a lot of time too when you're shopping for vehicles outside of your local area. Dealer or owner installed options won't show up of course.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

mcarter

podders Helping podders - pHp

Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Location: Greenbrier, TN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3419

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 9:19am

Looking at Toyota sites, it appears the 5K tow capacity is linked to the 3.5L motor. That makes sense to me. The tow capacity remains constant for AWD and FWD, and is considerably less with the 4 cyl motor. Acknowledge the tow package as discussed. Seems to be standard in the mid size SUV market. My Hyundai SUV has an increased tow capacity with the 3.5L motor. I imagine Jeep does something similar. Doxielover - do you have a 3.5L motor?

Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."

lostagain

Senior Member

Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2587

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 9:25am

And if a sales person makes a representation about some characteristic or quality of the vehicle that's important to you, such as towing capacity, especially if you have suspicions that it may be, well let's say, "less than correct," note it in the sales contract. Remember, the contract supersedes everything the sales person says, as is specifically stated in practically every vehicle sales contract, so his/her puffery is nothing more than blue sky. To prove fraud in the inducement to enter into a contract and void it would cost you more than the price of the vehicle.

I've noticed in the last couple years a trend in business to be less and less honest. What we call in the legal biz "sharp practices" (i.e. cheating) is getting more and more common and the recourse you have is getting less and less. This is true with even the large companies that used to value their reputations. Now they just say tough luck, we're a big company and we can do what ever we want to you. Few have the resources to fight them. We are returning to the days of Caveat Emptor, so watch out.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

GlueGuy

Senior Member

Joined: 15 May 2017
Location: N. California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2629

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 10:25am

+1 to what lostagain says. Anything, ANYTHING that a sales person says without written backup becomes hearsay in a court of law or even a warranty claim. So when you hear something that the sales person says in the form of capability or whatever, make a note of it, and make sure it is mentioned in the sales documentation.

I would add, that regardless of what anyone says, I would never try to tow with a front-wheel-drive vehicle unless it was a light utility trailer or some such.

bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

doxielover View Drop Down

Newbie

Joined: 20 Oct 2018
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 10:34am

Yes I have the 6 cylinder motor.

Diana
Soon to be R-Pod owner

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 10:41am

mcarter, the LEplus trim level comes with the V6. And yes you must have the V6 to get the 5000 lb rating, but doxielover's car is still only rated at 2000 lbs because no tow package. I know you're searching for something more to explain the 2000 vs 5000 lbs butin this case its really just the tow package, same as with Jeep, and probably most of the other makes.

lostagain, the verbal misrepresentation argument is just a price negotiating tool, not something you can litigate. Getting things written into the sales contract is the way to go, for sure. These guys know that and will fight that tooth and nail. When I bought my used Highlander I did my mechanical inspection and noted that the coolant level was low, so I insisted that they repair that if it turned out to be a real problem. I had to start walking out the door to get that written in, and I had to write the language myself. Luckily there was no problem so I didn't have to try to enforce that contract clause...

The best way is to verify everything you think is important yourself prior to completing the deal. Just follow this sage old advice: is he (or she) a salesperson? Is his (or her) mouth moving? Then he (or she) is lying... And just walk out if you don't like the deal, you're not going to hurt their feelings. Most of the time they'll follow you out and drag you back in, their livelihood depends on their making sales.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 11:35am

GlueGuy, I wouldn't personally tow anything heavy with a FWD vehicle either.

That doesn't make Toyota's ratings invalid. Or any of the other mid sized SUV's in this category either. Like the 2017 Chevy Traverse for example. 2000 lbs towing with V6 and no tow package, 5200 lbs with the V6 and tow package whether AWD or FWD. And it looks like all the tow package is is a heavy duty radiator, a receiver hitch, and a trailer connector.

So y'all need to get over this, its just the way this market segment is. I'm not biased toward Toyota, they have to earn my business every day. So far they have. But I do detect a bias against towing with anything other than good American body on frame trucks among some folks here.

That's fine, but let's not scare off folks that choose to buy an rPod because they want to tow with a more car like vehicle that the feel meets their daily needs better. That's OK too if done properly. Let's instead help them to be realistic about what their trailers really weigh loaded and what gear, like a wd hitch they need, how to set it up properly, and how to operate their rigs safely.

They clearly often don't get that education from their RV or car salespeople. Might jeopardize a sale if they told them the truth, heaven forbid Wink

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

GlueGuy

Senior Member

Joined: 15 May 2017
Location: N. California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2629

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 12:25pm

I don't think I was advocating "American body on frame" at all, nor was I bashing Toyota. We have owned numerous Toyota (trucks though) over the years. They make fine vehicles.

I will say that if you are going to attempt to tow a significant trailer, then you should be very cautious about a FWD vehicle, and for sure you will want a WDH if that's what you're going to attempt. Further, I would caution about attempting to add a WDH to a unibody-type vehicle. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it is an issue. Having both FWD and unibody is kind of like "two strikes".

bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 1:17pm

I'm not suggesting any particular member of the forum is biased. Just a general trend. Its the old school way to tow, so proven and dependable, and understandable, but not for everyone.

I agree that any vehicle you want to put a WDH on needs to be approved for that, as well as the specific hitch receiver. Don't care if its unibody or body on frame, either can be fine if designed for the application and not if they're not. Tacomas are body on frame but most only have a 3500 lb tow rating.

Here is an interesting read for all you body on frame truck guys. Explains why SUV's (and the Honda Ridgeline) can do it while conventional pickups are more challenging:

https://jalopnik.com/mid-size-trucks-dont-need-frames-1785674405

I agree that FWD is not the best option for towing, and I wouldn't do it myself, but I stop short of telling others that they can't.

I do think the best thing we can recommend to folks when selecting a tow vehicle and trailer combo is to use the GVWR of the trailer as a guide, not the empty weight, and use 15% of that figure for the tongue weight, not the "suggested" tongue weight or whatever the silly number in the trailer specs is. And to check all the limitations on both vehicles (axle ratings, GCVWR, tongue weight ratings, and to try to allow at least a little headroom on all these. I think the trailer loading calculator we've forwarded links to can be very helpful as well, particularly for the effects of the WDH.

All this takes some time for new owners to digest but its really needed information for safety I think. Not understanding it is a lot like going flying without knowing your aircraft weight and balance are in the envelope, you can die if you screw it up.

What really bugs me is how someone like the guy in mcarter's article can go to an RV dealer, buy an obviously oversized trailer for his TV, and then have them charge him to install a brake controller and a WDH on it, and then watch him roll out of the dealership with his new rig. IMHO in a fair world that guy should lose his business license, but I know that's not going to happen. As lostagain says, caveat emptor.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

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offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Topic: Tow Vehicle - 2015 Toyota Highlander LEPlus Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 3:44am
	doxielover, sorry for your dillemma, and even more sorry that we're causing you more stress with our little internal forum debates. You'll find that everyone has their favorite tow vehicle, its kind of like sports teams. Heck, we even like to argue about the pros and cons of rDomes on here. Despite some of the opinions expressed here, plenty of folks happily tow rPods with Highlanders and similar vehicles. Others wouldn't tow a tiny yard trailer with anything smaller than a 3/4 ton pickup. And most folks wind up changing vehicles as they gain experience, so what you're going through is not that unusual. So please keep plodding forward, you'll get to a good place in the end. My advice when you are in discussions with your dealer is to focus on the misleading sales pitch you got regarding tow rating of your Highlander, rather than the AWD. Not that you don't want the AWD, but that will likely come just because a FWD Highlander with the 5000 lb tow package is going to be a rare bird. If in the end they offer to find you a FWD one, THEN tell them you want the AWD as well. Good luck!
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 4:56am
	doxielover, so you never have to find out the hard way again that a salesperson/owner has misrepresented a vehicle to you, here's a little tip: write down the VIN. It will be on the paperwork but also you can confirm that the same number is on the driver's door sticker or on the front of the dash where it meets the windshield on the driver's side. Call the parts department of any dealer for that make, read them the VIN, and they will be able to look up exactly what came from the factory on that vehicle. Saves a lot of time too when you're shopping for vehicles outside of your local area. Dealer or owner installed options won't show up of course.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

mcarter Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 07 Apr 2016 Location: Greenbrier, TN Online Status: Offline Posts: 3419	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 9:19am
	Looking at Toyota sites, it appears the 5K tow capacity is linked to the 3.5L motor. That makes sense to me. The tow capacity remains constant for AWD and FWD, and is considerably less with the 4 cyl motor. Acknowledge the tow package as discussed. Seems to be standard in the mid size SUV market. My Hyundai SUV has an increased tow capacity with the 3.5L motor. I imagine Jeep does something similar. Doxielover - do you have a 3.5L motor?
	Mike Carter 2015 178 " I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."

lostagain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 9:25am
	And if a sales person makes a representation about some characteristic or quality of the vehicle that's important to you, such as towing capacity, especially if you have suspicions that it may be, well let's say, "less than correct," note it in the sales contract. Remember, the contract supersedes everything the sales person says, as is specifically stated in practically every vehicle sales contract, so his/her puffery is nothing more than blue sky. To prove fraud in the inducement to enter into a contract and void it would cost you more than the price of the vehicle. I've noticed in the last couple years a trend in business to be less and less honest. What we call in the legal biz "sharp practices" (i.e. cheating) is getting more and more common and the recourse you have is getting less and less. This is true with even the large companies that used to value their reputations. Now they just say tough luck, we're a big company and we can do what ever we want to you. Few have the resources to fight them. We are returning to the days of Caveat Emptor, so watch out.
	Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

GlueGuy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 May 2017 Location: N. California Online Status: Offline Posts: 2629	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 10:25am
	+1 to what lostagain says. Anything, ANYTHING that a sales person says without written backup becomes hearsay in a court of law or even a warranty claim. So when you hear something that the sales person says in the form of capability or whatever, make a note of it, and make sure it is mentioned in the sales documentation. I would add, that regardless of what anyone says, I would never try to tow with a front-wheel-drive vehicle unless it was a light utility trailer or some such.
	bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

doxielover Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 20 Oct 2018 Location: Mesa, Arizona Online Status: Offline Posts: 4	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 10:34am
	Yes I have the 6 cylinder motor.
	Diana Soon to be R-Pod owner

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 10:41am
	mcarter, the LEplus trim level comes with the V6. And yes you must have the V6 to get the 5000 lb rating, but doxielover's car is still only rated at 2000 lbs because no tow package. I know you're searching for something more to explain the 2000 vs 5000 lbs butin this case its really just the tow package, same as with Jeep, and probably most of the other makes. lostagain, the verbal misrepresentation argument is just a price negotiating tool, not something you can litigate. Getting things written into the sales contract is the way to go, for sure. These guys know that and will fight that tooth and nail. When I bought my used Highlander I did my mechanical inspection and noted that the coolant level was low, so I insisted that they repair that if it turned out to be a real problem. I had to start walking out the door to get that written in, and I had to write the language myself. Luckily there was no problem so I didn't have to try to enforce that contract clause... The best way is to verify everything you think is important yourself prior to completing the deal. Just follow this sage old advice: is he (or she) a salesperson? Is his (or her) mouth moving? Then he (or she) is lying... And just walk out if you don't like the deal, you're not going to hurt their feelings. Most of the time they'll follow you out and drag you back in, their livelihood depends on their making sales.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 11:35am
	GlueGuy, I wouldn't personally tow anything heavy with a FWD vehicle either. That doesn't make Toyota's ratings invalid. Or any of the other mid sized SUV's in this category either. Like the 2017 Chevy Traverse for example. 2000 lbs towing with V6 and no tow package, 5200 lbs with the V6 and tow package whether AWD or FWD. And it looks like all the tow package is is a heavy duty radiator, a receiver hitch, and a trailer connector. So y'all need to get over this, its just the way this market segment is. I'm not biased toward Toyota, they have to earn my business every day. So far they have. But I do detect a bias against towing with anything other than good American body on frame trucks among some folks here. That's fine, but let's not scare off folks that choose to buy an rPod because they want to tow with a more car like vehicle that the feel meets their daily needs better. That's OK too if done properly. Let's instead help them to be realistic about what their trailers really weigh loaded and what gear, like a wd hitch they need, how to set it up properly, and how to operate their rigs safely. They clearly often don't get that education from their RV or car salespeople. Might jeopardize a sale if they told them the truth, heaven forbid
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

GlueGuy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 May 2017 Location: N. California Online Status: Offline Posts: 2629	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 12:25pm
	I don't think I was advocating "American body on frame" at all, nor was I bashing Toyota. We have owned numerous Toyota (trucks though) over the years. They make fine vehicles. I will say that if you are going to attempt to tow a significant trailer, then you should be very cautious about a FWD vehicle, and for sure you will want a WDH if that's what you're going to attempt. Further, I would caution about attempting to add a WDH to a unibody-type vehicle. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it is an issue. Having both FWD and unibody is kind of like "two strikes".
	bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 30 Oct 2018 at 1:17pm
	I'm not suggesting any particular member of the forum is biased. Just a general trend. Its the old school way to tow, so proven and dependable, and understandable, but not for everyone. I agree that any vehicle you want to put a WDH on needs to be approved for that, as well as the specific hitch receiver. Don't care if its unibody or body on frame, either can be fine if designed for the application and not if they're not. Tacomas are body on frame but most only have a 3500 lb tow rating. Here is an interesting read for all you body on frame truck guys. Explains why SUV's (and the Honda Ridgeline) can do it while conventional pickups are more challenging: https://jalopnik.com/mid-size-trucks-dont-need-frames-1785674405 I agree that FWD is not the best option for towing, and I wouldn't do it myself, but I stop short of telling others that they can't. I do think the best thing we can recommend to folks when selecting a tow vehicle and trailer combo is to use the GVWR of the trailer as a guide, not the empty weight, and use 15% of that figure for the tongue weight, not the "suggested" tongue weight or whatever the silly number in the trailer specs is. And to check all the limitations on both vehicles (axle ratings, GCVWR, tongue weight ratings, and to try to allow at least a little headroom on all these. I think the trailer loading calculator we've forwarded links to can be very helpful as well, particularly for the effects of the WDH. All this takes some time for new owners to digest but its really needed information for safety I think. Not understanding it is a lot like going flying without knowing your aircraft weight and balance are in the envelope, you can die if you screw it up. What really bugs me is how someone like the guy in mcarter's article can go to an RV dealer, buy an obviously oversized trailer for his TV, and then have them charge him to install a brake controller and a WDH on it, and then watch him roll out of the dealership with his new rig. IMHO in a fair world that guy should lose his business license, but I know that's not going to happen. As lostagain says, caveat emptor.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold