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lostagain

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Topic: Humans - Chapter II
Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 8:30am

I agree that it isn't the BSA as an organization that is problematical, though they do need to do some self examinations. Scouting be it BSA or GSA is made up of human beings and they can choose to be focused on helping the kids become loving, caring, generous members of their community or they can carry on the prejudices and selfish conduct that some leaders take into the organization with them.

My personal experience with the BSA was that it taught me principles of personal responsibility, a love of and responsibility for nature and the need to protect it, the value of being a member of a community and putting the community ahead of your own selfish interests. The leaders of the troop were not high falutin' but just regular working dads who liked kids and shared their values.

Sadly, my son's experience in scouting did not turn out well. The troop leaders allowed nearly uncontrolled hazing, they were arrogant and conceited with no sense of community spirit. He didn't stay long. My daughter, until her move to CRLA (a California legal aid group) was chief fund raiser for GSA in the Alameda County Council. My granddaughters are all girl scouts. I have to say I was wowed by the quality of their program. The have done incredible things and are having an experience much more similar to what I experienced as a child, only better.

So, like with any organization, the character of its membership and, more importantly, leadership will make it what it is, for better or worse. We're all humans.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
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offgrid

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Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 7:34am

I certainly didn't mean to start a trash the Boy Scouts discussion.

Like every other large organization made up of actual humans, it's a mixed bag. After my extremely negative experience with the first scout troop (I won't describe in a public forum the things they did) in my group camp I expected the worst and recall being astounded at how well behaved the next troop was. That just points out the fallacy in lumping categories of people together based on limited experience.

Thats why its called prejudice: "Prejudice is an affective feeling towards a person or group member based solely on that person's group membership."

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

mcarter

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Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 5:10pm

Me too, as an former scout I was embarrassed. Remember when we used to wear out uniforms to school:)

Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."

GlueGuy

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Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 5:00pm

Originally posted by lostagain

Sadly, that is too true of the Scouts. I remember a recent report where Scout leaders in Utah, pushed a balance rock off it's base in a national park. Totally clueless about the significance of the act. No, Scouting has not kept up with the realization that what we do to our environment has lasting consequences.

I remember that incident. Really ticked me off at the time. Thanks for reminding me; it's the sort of thing you don't want to forget.

bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

lostagain

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Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 3:54pm

Sadly, that is too true of the Scouts. I remember a recent report where Scout leaders in Utah, pushed a balance rock off it's base in a national park. Totally clueless about the significance of the act. No, Scouting has not kept up with the realization that what we do to our environment has lasting consequences.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

offgrid

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Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 3:08pm

My summer college job was being one of those "servants" - I was a Park Aid working for the CSDP (California State Dept of Parks). Had to dump the garbage and clean the bathrooms (not so fun) but also got to clear and construct trails and park facilities (very fun).

That was in the '70's. Some people trashed the parks back then, most didn't. Today some people trash the parks, most don't. Overall I think park visitors' behavior is better these days.

And the bad actors weren't necessarily who you might think. Sorry if this offends any of you who are into Scouting, but the very worst experiences I had back then were with maintaining group camps used by the Boy Scouts. And some of the best experiences. It all depended on their troop leaders (there's that pesky leadership and respect again).

I will also say this, if I kept my bathrooms and campgrounds clean they tended to stay clean. If I didn't keep on top of them they went downhill really quickly. Folks don't seem to feel very responsible for increasing an existing mess. Oh well, everyone else is doing it... Again, leadership and respect. Or call it social pressure.

And the campgrounds never took care of themselves, I can assure you, unless there were no campers there.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

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Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 2:32pm

Originally posted by lostagain

but to venture into that area that can get pretty political/religious, so I'll keep my fingers off the keyboard.

I thank you for that. We (all of us) need to resist the temptation to take this discussion into political or religious matters. We all know that we don't address these very personal/individual convictions/opinions here on the forum.

I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments. They are thought provoking. I submit, however, that the parks have not changed, nor the visitors. The only thing that has changed is that there is not a legion of paid personnel and volunteers to clean up after us, try to prevent and repair vandalism and, insure the campsite that we reserved (months ago) will be available/vacant when we get there (assuming the facility has not closed). This doesn't strike me as a "leadership" issue. Instead, it is a "servant" issue - there are none. There's no money to pay the servants so, they are gone and no volunteer(s) can carry the load alone. IMHO, these parks could just about run themselves - IF (repeat IF) we all would simply do the right thing(s).

DavMar

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Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 12:44pm

+1 lostagain .... very well said.

Unfortunately I have found in my life that most people are "sheep" and they tend to often to follow the "lions" that are on top be it the business world or in politics. Which is why its important we all pick wisely those who shall lead and the masses follow. Which IMHO has sadly been very absent recently.

I also don't want to get into an immigration debate here but lostagain last paragraph of his post struck a cord with me. The family dynamics he found in South America are not just relegated to people from Latin America. I am just a second generation American on my paternal side and remember the same family structure among my own family and their friends who also emigrated. I find it very disturbing for some Americans to denigrate and try to make scapegoats of newly arrived immigrants for doing the same now.

Dave & Marlene J with Zoey the
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lostagain

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Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 10:18am

For 10 years of my law practice, I ran an ethics and compliance program for a multi-national company in the Americas. One of the most basic concepts that we [all compliance officers] pushed was that of the concept of "tone from the top." Basically, when the boss does things the right way, everyone else seems to follow. When the boss violates the rules, everyone else uses it as a justification to do likewise.

I've noticed in dealing with all kinds of businesses recently, often major companies, that there has been a shift to grift. Whether it's the cable company, a cell phone company, medical insurers, etc. etc., they all seem to have a scam they are playing on their customers. As to why, I have my opinions, but to venture into that area that can get pretty political/religious, so I'll keep my fingers off the keyboard.

I don't agree that the it's necessarily the segment of society that lives at home with their parents that is causing the problem, though there are certainly anecdotal examples of uber-selfishness on the part of some in that category. Most of the vandalism and willful destruction of our parks, private and public lands, and natural resources seems to be related to people who are disassociated with their communities and feel no sense of personal responsibility for their conduct. This is a phenomena that crosses all age lines. Undirected anger at some imaginary enemy seems to be a major element. I have in mind, as an example, an azzhole who drives a diesel pick-up in the area where I live who put a device on it to flood the engine with fuel and belch out horrible black smoke whenever he wants. What could possibly be the motive for such conduct? I speculate that this person has serious anger problems and is basically flipping off everyone else in our community.

I have lived, traveled, and worked in Lat. Am. where it is common for extended families to live together spanning 3 or 4 generations. More often than not, kids don't leave home until marriage, and later mom and dad come to live with them as they get old. There is a strong sense of family and generational cohesion. People tend to think of the future in generational terms, not just their own present moment. They think more in terms of "we" than "I." Where these strong families exist, we don't see the anger that has become such a strong element in our culture. Maybe if we learn to think more in terms of "we" and 'us" instead of "I" and "me" we would find a lot less of the wanton destruction of our public treasures. Again, as I suggested in the other Human's thread, it's a matter of following the "Golden Rule."

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

offgrid

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Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 9:28am

I don't think that age really has much to do with it. If anything I think most of the younger generation is more respectful of our parks and open lands than in the past. I used to see a lot more garbage dumped over the sides of back roads 20-30 years ago than I do today.

We have had a few folks here on the OBX that have deliberately destroyed protected turtle nest sites apparently because they're angry that they don't get to drive their trucks anywhere they want on "their" beach like they used to do way back when they were kids. Or something.

I come back to leadership. If we continue to allow our leaders to set bad examples we will continue to reap the "rewards".

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold