50 or 30 amp - R-pod Owners Forum

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offgrid

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Joined: 23 Jul 2018
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Topic: 50 or 30 amp
Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 9:15am

Folks who feel that the horse has died are welcome to move on anytime they want to, I don't know that its necessary to limit those of us who still sense an equine heartbeat from continuing on until we're certain that the animal has truly gone to greener pastures. LOL

Appliance cords aren't treated the same way as permanent wiring because they're visible, dedicated to a single load, and not run through walls or other concealed areas. The NEC doesn't cover them, there are UL standards that apply.

I would think it would be pretty easy for one of the EMS device manufacturers to add over current disconnect functionality. The Progressive Industries one for example already monitors current (it has a display for it) and it already has disconnect functionality for other fault conditions.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

lostagain

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Location: Quaker Hill, CT
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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 9:32am

Long live dead horses! ...and pie in the sky, uh, er, I mean clover in the sky.

Seriously though, that 18 awg lamp cord the homeowner placed hidden behind the couch to light the lamps on the end tables, or the one he ran under the carpet to reach where there was no plug would seem to present a similar hazard regardless of whether NEC applies. The principle seems to be the same: Conductors not rated for the current load can burn up before the overcurrent is detected by the higher amp overcurrent protection device.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

offgrid

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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 10:10am

I prefer live horses, they tend not to smell as bad, depending on how often you clean their stalls.

lostagain, you are correct, the scenario you're describing certainly presents a similar failure mode. Whether it is a similar hazard or not depends on how likely it is. For this reason the code makes a clear distinction between permanent/concealed wiring and temporary appliance wiring. Being dedicated to a single known load and not concealed inside walls for many years makes it less likely to have the kind of failure we've been talking about. But absolutely it can and does happen, often.

Of the roughly 45,000 residential fires annually involving electrical failures roughly 1/3 are due to ignition of electrical/wire insulation. Looks like about 1/3 of that was in lamps and fixtures, so quite a lot. Be careful about confirmation bias though, the lamps and fixtures fires could be a relatively high percentage because safety standards are working well to reduce other causes.

Here's a link to the latest NFPA report on this.

http://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/US-Fire-Problem/Fire-causes/osHomeElectricalFires.pdf

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

lostagain

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Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:13am

The absolute number of electrical fires due to inadequate conductors is what it is, regardless of its relative proportion relative to other potential causes.

So now I'm going to have to disconnect our Pod from that lamp cord I have connected directly from our 200A main. ;--) [The emojis are not working here in Colombia for some inexplicable reason.]

I'm wondering about those Christmas lights that have closer to 22awg plugged into the 20A breaker that light the pinon pine tree in my yard that burns like a roman candle when ignited.

As for dead horses, they go well with a mustard and thyme sauce.

But to stay on topic, it's best to use a cable that is designed to carry the current applied to it. So if you want to plug into a 50A breaker, best to size the cable accordingly, but the complication on the Pod would be the concealed wire from the 30A plug on the side of the trailer to the 30A breaker.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

GlueGuy

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Joined: 15 May 2017
Location: N. California
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Posts: 2630

Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:29am

So the "proper" solution would be a dogbone adapter with a built-in 30 amp breaker. Not that it is strictly "proper" in any sense, but if you wanted to protect yourself and your pod and the power cord, that would be the way to do it.

bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

offgrid

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Joined: 23 Jul 2018
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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:31am

That and the connector itself, which is not going to be rated for 50A either. That concealed set of conductors are probably the highest life safety risk area, if they overheat and your trailer catches fire internally you might not get out. The external cable not so much, unless you're in CA where you could start a massive forest fire.

Get some low voltage led Christmas lights for next year and give that pine tree a new lease on life.

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

lostagain

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Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
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Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:52am

The best solution, it seems to me, would be to continue to boon dock and avoid those fancy high priced campgrounds that cater to those who use 50A for their RV's. Besides when you park between two of them you look like little doll house.

As for my Christmas lights, I just bought a bunch of LED lights that run on regular household current. I'll just keep paying my insurance premium and hoping for the best. If the tree catches fire at least it'd look really cool blazing away on a dark, cold winter night.

How about a 50A cable to the pod, connected to device that plugs into the outside of the pod containing a 30A breaker that goes to the 30A female plug that connects to the trailer? Then there is really no point along the way where there isn't adequate wire size for the current protection. Another opportunity to sell more RV stuff to fill your available storage.

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

Tars Tarkas View Drop Down

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Joined: 14 Jan 2013
Location: Near Nashville
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Posts: 1446

Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:54am

If you had a 200 amp breaker powering a 100 w light bulb, an 18g wire would work fine. You'd be pulling 0.8333 amps. Likewise, if your Pod is hooked up to a 50 amp breaker, the entire circuit, from the post to the converter, is only going to be carrying as many amps as you're using.

There are imaginable scenarios in which the load could increase to 50 amps. Other than stupidity, the cause would likely be a short circuit -- a bad connection or a bare wire touching ground. Maybe the campground's ground crew ran over your power cable, something like that.

I'm guessing in most cases a 50 amp breaker would flip just about as fast as a 30 amp breaker in such a situation.

There are good reasons, of course, for having circuits of the appropriate amperage, but it just doesn't seem to me that there's much to worry about in using a 50 to 30 amp dogbone if used with a touch of intelligence.

It is interesting, perhaps telling, that 50 to 30 amp dogbones seem to be sold without dire warnings. They should have labels telling users they are very likely to die of electrocution or in an electrically ignited inferno. But they don't.

I like the idea of a dogbone with a built-in 30 amp breaker. I can't find one though.

2010 176
FJ Cruiser

offgrid

Senior Member

Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290

Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:55am

I agree, a listed 50 to 30A adapter with integrated overcurrent protection would be ideal. Didn't we find one that would work a few months ago or am I having a senior moment?

1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold

lostagain

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Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2587

Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 12:21pm

Tars, I made a reasonably comfortable living thanks to the stupidity of others whos acts resulted in unplanned and adverse consequences. And the supply of those actors seemed to be nearly limitless.

With my 18awg example connected to a 200A breaker and our Pod, it's the unplanned events, such as causing a dead short with a sharp metal object that could initiate the cascade of physical occurrances that lead to unpleasant consequences, not the normal current draw from what ever device you happen to be running, like a light bulb. If I ran my ac on the lamp cord with inadequate current protection, …. well I hardly ever use it anyway. ;--)

Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

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offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Topic: 50 or 30 amp Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 9:15am
	Folks who feel that the horse has died are welcome to move on anytime they want to, I don't know that its necessary to limit those of us who still sense an equine heartbeat from continuing on until we're certain that the animal has truly gone to greener pastures. Appliance cords aren't treated the same way as permanent wiring because they're visible, dedicated to a single load, and not run through walls or other concealed areas. The NEC doesn't cover them, there are UL standards that apply. I would think it would be pretty easy for one of the EMS device manufacturers to add over current disconnect functionality. The Progressive Industries one for example already monitors current (it has a display for it) and it already has disconnect functionality for other fault conditions.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

lostagain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 9:32am
	Long live dead horses! ...and pie in the sky, uh, er, I mean clover in the sky. Seriously though, that 18 awg lamp cord the homeowner placed hidden behind the couch to light the lamps on the end tables, or the one he ran under the carpet to reach where there was no plug would seem to present a similar hazard regardless of whether NEC applies. The principle seems to be the same: Conductors not rated for the current load can burn up before the overcurrent is detected by the higher amp overcurrent protection device.
	Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 10:10am
	I prefer live horses, they tend not to smell as bad, depending on how often you clean their stalls. lostagain, you are correct, the scenario you're describing certainly presents a similar failure mode. Whether it is a similar hazard or not depends on how likely it is. For this reason the code makes a clear distinction between permanent/concealed wiring and temporary appliance wiring. Being dedicated to a single known load and not concealed inside walls for many years makes it less likely to have the kind of failure we've been talking about. But absolutely it can and does happen, often. Of the roughly 45,000 residential fires annually involving electrical failures roughly 1/3 are due to ignition of electrical/wire insulation. Looks like about 1/3 of that was in lamps and fixtures, so quite a lot. Be careful about confirmation bias though, the lamps and fixtures fires could be a relatively high percentage because safety standards are working well to reduce other causes. Here's a link to the latest NFPA report on this. http://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/US-Fire-Problem/Fire-causes/osHomeElectricalFires.pdf
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

lostagain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:13am
	The absolute number of electrical fires due to inadequate conductors is what it is, regardless of its relative proportion relative to other potential causes. So now I'm going to have to disconnect our Pod from that lamp cord I have connected directly from our 200A main. ;--) [The emojis are not working here in Colombia for some inexplicable reason.] I'm wondering about those Christmas lights that have closer to 22awg plugged into the 20A breaker that light the pinon pine tree in my yard that burns like a roman candle when ignited. As for dead horses, they go well with a mustard and thyme sauce. But to stay on topic, it's best to use a cable that is designed to carry the current applied to it. So if you want to plug into a 50A breaker, best to size the cable accordingly, but the complication on the Pod would be the concealed wire from the 30A plug on the side of the trailer to the 30A breaker.
	Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

GlueGuy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 May 2017 Location: N. California Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:29am
	So the "proper" solution would be a dogbone adapter with a built-in 30 amp breaker. Not that it is strictly "proper" in any sense, but if you wanted to protect yourself and your pod and the power cord, that would be the way to do it.
	bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:31am
	That and the connector itself, which is not going to be rated for 50A either. That concealed set of conductors are probably the highest life safety risk area, if they overheat and your trailer catches fire internally you might not get out. The external cable not so much, unless you're in CA where you could start a massive forest fire. Get some low voltage led Christmas lights for next year and give that pine tree a new lease on life.
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

lostagain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:52am
	The best solution, it seems to me, would be to continue to boon dock and avoid those fancy high priced campgrounds that cater to those who use 50A for their RV's. Besides when you park between two of them you look like little doll house. As for my Christmas lights, I just bought a bunch of LED lights that run on regular household current. I'll just keep paying my insurance premium and hoping for the best. If the tree catches fire at least it'd look really cool blazing away on a dark, cold winter night. How about a 50A cable to the pod, connected to device that plugs into the outside of the pod containing a 30A breaker that goes to the 30A female plug that connects to the trailer? Then there is really no point along the way where there isn't adequate wire size for the current protection. Another opportunity to sell more RV stuff to fill your available storage.
	Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost

Tars Tarkas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 14 Jan 2013 Location: Near Nashville Online Status: Offline Posts: 1446	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:54am
	If you had a 200 amp breaker powering a 100 w light bulb, an 18g wire would work fine. You'd be pulling 0.8333 amps. Likewise, if your Pod is hooked up to a 50 amp breaker, the entire circuit, from the post to the converter, is only going to be carrying as many amps as you're using. There are imaginable scenarios in which the load could increase to 50 amps. Other than stupidity, the cause would likely be a short circuit -- a bad connection or a bare wire touching ground. Maybe the campground's ground crew ran over your power cable, something like that. I'm guessing in most cases a 50 amp breaker would flip just about as fast as a 30 amp breaker in such a situation. There are good reasons, of course, for having circuits of the appropriate amperage, but it just doesn't seem to me that there's much to worry about in using a 50 to 30 amp dogbone if used with a touch of intelligence. It is interesting, perhaps telling, that 50 to 30 amp dogbones seem to be sold without dire warnings. They should have labels telling users they are very likely to die of electrocution or in an electrically ignited inferno. But they don't. I like the idea of a dogbone with a built-in 30 amp breaker. I can't find one though. TT
	2010 176 FJ Cruiser

offgrid Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:55am
	I agree, a listed 50 to 30A adapter with integrated overcurrent protection would be ideal. Didn't we find one that would work a few months ago or am I having a senior moment?
	1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold

lostagain Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587	Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 12:21pm
	Tars, I made a reasonably comfortable living thanks to the stupidity of others whos acts resulted in unplanned and adverse consequences. And the supply of those actors seemed to be nearly limitless. With my 18awg example connected to a 200A breaker and our Pod, it's the unplanned events, such as causing a dead short with a sharp metal object that could initiate the cascade of physical occurrances that lead to unpleasant consequences, not the normal current draw from what ever device you happen to be running, like a light bulb. If I ran my ac on the lamp cord with inadequate current protection, …. well I hardly ever use it anyway. ;--)
	Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost