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Topic ClosedSway bars, wdh, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

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Olddawgsrule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sway bars, wdh, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
    Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by tcj

 

We are not rich...not poor either...but can't afford a big truck.  So...as instructed in the Toyota's owner manual...I installed a WDH to keep it level.

The one valuable piece of information for me in the video is to undo the spring arms when driving through a dip.  That happens often in areas we camp as we need to drive through the ditch to get off the road to a camp spot.

I'm very curious as to which Toyota you have and that manual statement. I have a 2017 Tacoma and mine does not state using anything to go beyond the factory installed items. Mine eludes to warranty cancelation if any 'after-market' suspension assists are installed. I'm very curious on what yours says and which one you own!

I do understand what your saying about added torque applied as driving through a ditch/water drain/hollow. I tend to think that our trailers (unless a lift is installed) doesn't adds all that much before we bottom out (by design?). Now, with a lift installed, I can see where this can be a issue. Something those with a lift should be aware of and of course how much of.

I'm debating going to Sumo Springs vs. the WDH (known to me now as LDH). Even those installed risk my warranty. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

Originally posted by tcj

 
We are not rich...not poor either...but can't afford a big truck.  So...as instructed in the Toyota's owner manual...I installed a WDH to keep it level.
I'm very curious as to which Toyota you have and that manual statement. I have a 2017 Tacoma and mine does not state using anything to go beyond the factory installed items. Mine eludes to warranty cancelation if any 'after-market' suspension assists are installed. I'm very curious on what yours says and which one you own!


Olddawgsrule, Our Toyota is a Tacoma access cab, 4 wheel drive, 6 speed manual transmission.  It has the factory installed towing package for trailers up to 6500 gross weight.

In the trailer towing section under "Tongue weight" it says:

"The gross trailer weight should be distributed so that the tongue weight is 9% to 11%.  If using a weight distributing hitch when towing, return the front axle to the same weight as before the trailer connection...if the axle weight cannot be measured directly, adjust the WDH until the height of the front fender is the same height as before connection".

Under trailer towing cautions it says:
"If the gross trailer weight is over 2000 pounds, a sway control device with sufficient capacity is required.  If the gross trailer weight is over 5000 pounds, a weight distributing hitch with sufficient capacity is required."

So...I installed WDH with sway control.
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2019 at 4:49am
Well, the second half of that video was pretty much all politics and religion and even the first part was only about 10% actual physics and engineering, so I had a hard time getting through it.  Skipping all the other inappropriate stuff, the physics part started out OK but left a lot of the explanation out, so it's incorrect, or more accurately, it's incomplete. So let me try to keep going.

First the term to use for the rotational forces a wdh applies is "moment". Here is the definition of "moment":

"Moments are usually defined with respect to a fixed reference point; they deal with physical quantities as measured at some distance from that reference point. For example, the moment of force acting on an object, often called torque, is the product of the force and the distance to the object from the reference point."

So its not enough to just say that the torque being applied to the TV via the wdh could be applied anywhere on the TV.  You have to pick a point you're applying the moment around. In the case of the wdh that is the ball, the rig pivots around that.  

Second, just like the ground is creating an opposing force countering the weight of the rig so it doesn't fall to the center of the earth, there also has to be an opposing moment keeping the TV from continuing to rotate into the ground counterclockwise (as seen from the left side) when the wdh is tensioned. In effect that acts to increase the down force on the TV front axle and reduce the down force on the rear axle. 

Now on the the trailer. Since the spring  bars are being tensioned between the hitch attached to the TV and the trailer A frame, there is a clockwise moment being applied to the trailer and that is equal and opposite to the counterclockwise moment on the TV. That moment, also applied at the ball, is stopped by the ground pushing up on the trailer wheels, effectively increasing the load on the trailer axle, 

So, the wdh does redistribute down forces from the TV rear axle to the front axle and the trailer axle. The proportion getting redistributed where depends on the distances from the ball to each of the three axles. The total getting redistributed depends on the tension on the wdh bars.

So while the video dude is correct that the weight on the ball doesn't change, the down force on the rear axle does indeed go down with a wdh. With stiff enough wdh bars and frames that can take the load, you can take all the weight off the TV rear axle and suspend it in the air. There is an old wdh ad photo somewhere of an Olds Toronado with its rear wheels removed towing a trailer, the back of the Olds is just hanging there.

What's important here is the point of the wdh is NOT to just level the TV. It is NOT doing the same thing at all as adding helper springs to the TV rear axle. Adding helper springs does not increase the load on the front axle or reduce it on the rear axle. Driving around with too little weight on the TV front axle is dangerous. 

Whether you need a wdh with your particular rig or not will depend on the specs on your TV and how your trailer is loaded, If the TV is sufficiently heavy and/or has a long enough wheelbase (remember that the moment is the product of force x distance so a long wheelbase means that the load on the front of the TV won't be reduced as much to counter the tongue weight) then the wdh will be unnecessary.

If you do benefit from one that does not mean your TV is marginal, it just means that the wdh is part of the design requirements for that vehicle to carry that load. The point is to be sure to understand the specs and be comfortable with the way you have loaded and set up your rig. 

And no, you're not going to  break your TV  going through a swale by using a wdh within the vehicle manufacturer's specs and limitations.   

I'll include the link to this calculator again which I found very helpful in understanding what's going on and setting up my rig the way I wanted it. 

https://www.ajdesigner.com/apptrailertow/weightdistributionhitch.php




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 7:03am
Originally posted by tcj

The trailer tongue weight is about 450 to 500 pounds ...

Thanks for your comment. Wow, I had no idea that r-pods had gotten so heavy. 

My comments apply to the original 'light weight' r-pod. A 5000 pound r-pod may indeed require a wdh.
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StephenH View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 1:49pm
The 'Pods themselves are not so heavy. It is all the stuff we cram into them to take with us that really packs on (in) the pounds.Our 'Pods, much like many of us, could stand to go on a diet.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 3:11pm
I'd be willing to bet that its very common for the trailer specs on tongue weight, that is stated with no battery and either an empty propane tank or none at all, thats why they can state a 265#(or whatever) tongue weight.

Balderdash.

When you mount two batteries and a full propane tank, or two of them, plus a bunch of stuff loaded into the trailer ahead of the axle, which is most of the water, food, supplies, etc, the tongue weight goes up past 400...maybe around 500-600 for some of the bigger pods.

This is just one reason why in the past I have posted warnings about towing r-pods with minivans and small SUVs...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 3:51pm
Sounds like a good reason to use a WHD for those mini-vans and small SUV's.  Also, a little load balancing may be a good idea.  And, bottom line, as StephenH suggests, it might be a good idea to go on a Pod diet when you pack.
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Olddawgsrule View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by podwerkz

I'd be willing to bet that its very common for the trailer specs on tongue weight, that is stated with no battery and either an empty propane tank or none at all, thats why they can state a 265#(or whatever) tongue weight.

Balderdash.

When you mount two batteries and a full propane tank, or two of them, plus a bunch of stuff loaded into the trailer ahead of the axle, which is most of the water, food, supplies, etc, the tongue weight goes up past 400...maybe around 500-600 for some of the bigger pods.

This is just one reason why in the past I have posted warnings about towing r-pods with minivans and small SUVs...

It's even heavier than you state... I just went through it. No batt's, no propane, no anything.. Tongue weight read 375#'s (about). 182G dry (even drier than normal).. It is very important how we load!
  
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