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Space heater trips inverter breaker (R-Pod 195)
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GlueGuy View Drop Down
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Posts: 2629 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GlueGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Space heater trips inverter breaker (R-Pod 195)
    Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 10:12am
There is a difference with some solar panels in low light. In one of our remote comm sites, we had replaced some SunWize panels in a location where we often had a marine layer of fog with some Trina panels. I was surprised with how much more energy we got from the Trina panels (versus the SunWize panels) when there was heavy fog. This was a situation where there was a fair amount of "light", but not direct sun. That said, get full sun whenever you can.
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Posts: 5290 		Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2020 at 7:25am
Originally posted by StephenH

I'm not sure about that. Cloudy bright still has a good number of photons, just not as many as full sunlight. I have read enough reviews of solar panels from people who have stated that they do perform in non-direct sunlight situations, just not as well. It isn't a total binary situation where it either has full sunlight and works or it does not have full sunlight and does not work. If one can place the panel(s) in full sunlight, that is best. Sometimes, one has no choice as full, direct sunlight is not available. In that case, one takes what one can get. I agree though that one should not be swayed by marketing hype.

Also, watch out for some of the lower-priced panels. In the specifications, they state that they are made for a positive ground (or common positive) situation. The RPods are wired for negative ground (common negative). The Renogy one I just ordered is negative ground so it will work without issue.

Sorry to give the impression that you have to have full sun to get output from a PV module. Being a professional in this technology I tend to gloss over things sometimes.  The topic I was adressing was differences between the various solar module manufacturer's low light performance, which is negligible. 

The output current of solar modules is essentially linear with solar irradiance.  If you have a very cloudy day you might get about 10% of one sun. A day with high cirrus cloud cover might be 50-80%. So under very cloudy conditions a solar module will produce about 10% of the current that it produces under full sun conditions. That is because one photon of sunlight produces one electron-hole pair in the silicon which the solar cell is fabricated from. Nothing you can do about that, you can't collect energy that isn't there. 

One trick you can do on a very cloudy day is lay the module horizontally rather than point it towards the sun. if you can't tell where the sun is the module can't either so its better to lay it flat so it can collect sunlight scattered around the whole sky by the clouds.  

Re the positive vs. negative ground issue, I think you are perhaps referring to the surface polarization problem Sunpower's early products had in high voltage negtive grounded grid tie applications. The module frames must be grounded on these large high voltage systems for safety and when you do that it imposes an electric field between the glass surface and the top surface of the solar cells. In Sunpower's case they depended on what is effectively a static charge on the front cell surface to achieve their really high cell efficiencies and the electric field from negative grounding bled that off. Sunpower is far from being a cheap product though. Other manufacturer's might have had this issue too but I haven't heard about it. 

The surface passivation issue wouldn't effect our little 12V systems because the voltage is so low and we're not grounding the frames on these portable modules anyway. Besides, Sunpower doen't make their products the same way now as they did in the 00's so its no longer a problem for them even in high voltage negatively grounded systems. That doesn't stop other companies' marketing ppl from making stuff up of course... (disclaimer, I've never worked for Sunpower or owned their stock LOL)
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StephenH View Drop Down
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Posts: 6288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2020 at 7:43am
Thank you for the clarification. The trick of horizontal on cloudy days is good to know. Also, that is a good explanation of why some are positive ground. I still don't know how one of these positive grounded setups (which are much less expensive in the price comparisons I was doing on Amazon) would work with the RPod. Would it even matter as long as the correct polarity is observed when connecting the charge controller's wiring to the battery (whether direct or through the solar port)?

I just got to thinking though. This has drifted from the original topic. It is, however, very good information for anyone wishing to do a solar setup. It would be nice if the solar related posts could be moved to their own topic and pinned.
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Posts: 5290 		Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2020 at 7:56am
Originally posted by GlueGuy

There is a difference with some solar panels in low light. In one of our remote comm sites, we had replaced some SunWize panels in a location where we often had a marine layer of fog with some Trina panels. I was surprised with how much more energy we got from the Trina panels (versus the SunWize panels) when there was heavy fog. This was a situation where there was a fair amount of "light", but not direct sun. That said, get full sun whenever you can.

The current output of solar cells/modules that is linear with solar irradiance (photons to electrons) is the short circuit current (Isc) or current at zero voltage. If the fill factor (how close to square the current-voltage curve of the module is) is poor then the current at max power (Imp) around 17V for our 12V modules can drop off significantly from Isc. Good modules will have a nice flat upper horizontal part of the IV curve with very little drop off.

So if your SunWize modules had issues (like mismatched or broken cells or interconnects) then you could have a significant drop off in Imp at partial sun levels. Having multiple mismatched modules in series can make this worse too. The SunWize array was also probably not performing very well at full sun, it was just not as noticeable.  But for new modules at 12V in our little systems it's not something we need to really worry about. 

The purpose of a lot of marketing is to instill fear of making a mistake into consumers. This is especially true for relatively mature commodity type products, like say flashlight batteries or solar modules. There is really little difference between them so the companies' marketing folks try to come up with stuff to make you afraid to buy the other guy's product. Since they all do that the consumer often winds up confused and afraid of buying anything which hurts everyone's sales. 
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Posts: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Talking_Cow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 6:02pm
Going back to the original issue of the thread (and resurrecting it), we just upgraded from a 2011 RP177 to a 2021 RP195 and it came with solar installed and the 1000W inverter. 

Anybody have any thoughts on if we should be fronting shore power with a Surge suppressor and if so, which one?  Reading the inverter manual, I think it will take care of brown outs (and therefore no need for EMS), but I'm wondering if we need to protect the Inverter from spikes.
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Posts: 275 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gpokluda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 6:57pm
I would suggest the Autoformer Power Watchdog. We picked it based on positive reviews and because it also has Emergency Power Off (EPO). 
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Posts: 5290 		Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 6:11am
I don't believe the inverter itself would take care of brownouts. It's not going to be a hybrid type inverter which parallels with and provides grid support. It will be either on or off, depending on whether the grid connection is down or up, and there will be an automatic transfer switch which will determines that.

So, if the grid voltage is low but not low enough to trigger the ATS to activate the inverter, then you could still see a low voltage condition on the trailer circuits.

Is there a min voltage spec for the ATS transfer listed? If so and it is acceptable then as you say you wouldn't necessarily need an ems, just a surge supressor. If it's not then you might still want an EMS so you could depend on it to disconnect the grid and allow the inverter to take over when you wanted it to.

As for an autotransformer, that would maintain the voltage so the ATS wouldn't trip and the inverter would stay on under low grid voltage conditions. If you expect to encounter low grid voltage conditions a lot you might want that to avoid running on your battery, but it seems a bit like overkill to me.
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Posts: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Talking_Cow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 8:42am
Great analysis.  Thanks.
Of course Embarrassed its not going to augment the grid power from the battery in a brown out situation, not sure what I was thinking there. (Its not a UPS)  I haven't found anything in the manual on how low the grid power needs to go before the ATS flips it over to battery.

Under Inverter Operation - "The WF-5110RS Inverter is equipped with an internal transfer switch to automatically route either the incoming AC power or inverter produced AC voltage through to the output."
And  "When incoming AC power is not available, and the Power Push button is in the ON position, the inverter will produce AC voltage at the output."

These seem to be the other relevant specs:
  • Pure Sine Wave Output (THD less than 3%)
  • 1000 Watt Continuous Output Power
  • 2000 Watt Surge Capability to Handle Compressor/Motor Startup
  • 16 Amp Re-settable Circuit Breaker on AC Output
  • Greater than 86% Efficiency at Full Load
  • Automatically Re-settable Reverse Polarity Protection
  • Direct AC Pass-Through When Shore or Generator Power Present
  • Internal Transfer Switch Can Switch Up to a 20 Amp AC Load
  • Less than 50 Millisecond Transfer Time on WF-5110RS Startup/Shutdown
  • Protected Against Overload, Short Circuit, Reverse Battery Polarity, Over/Under Input Voltage, and Over Temperature
So, I think surge suppression is a no brainer, but I'll have to think on if I want the additional layer of insurance with the EMS.  We don't get a lot of brownouts where we've been camping.
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Posts: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Talking_Cow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 8:44am
Originally posted by gpokluda

I would suggest the Autoformer Power Watchdog. We picked it based on positive reviews and because it also has Emergency Power Off (EPO). 


Thanks, I'll have a look at that one.
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Posts: 259 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Pod_Geek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Talking_Cow

...So, I think surge suppression is a no brainer, but I'll have to think on if I want the additional layer of insurance with the EMS.  We don't get a lot of brownouts where we've been camping.

Well, we just returned from a 10-day trip and for the first time our Hughes Autoformer saved our bacon.  We stayed at a KOA that had a low-voltage problem due to someone knocking over a power pedestal and effectively shutting down half the electric grid.  When I plugged in the autoformer the "Boosting" light came on for the first time ever.  Guy across from us (a relative newbie) came over and asked us why his Watchdog was indicating 106 volts, and I told him there was obviously an issue (didn't know at the time what had happened).

He talked to management, got his money back, unplugged from power, and moved on the next morning.

Bottom line:  The autoformer (which has surge protection and also warns of open neutrals and grounding issues) is a great first line of defense.  I understand that some folks also attach a power watchdog after the autoformer.
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