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Edward_Larkin View Drop Down
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Posts: 14 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: New RP-171 Owners
    Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 7:10pm
Yea, it's downright dangerous. Definitely a good idea. Will investigate the same.
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Posts: 5290 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 8:51pm
I might be misinterpreting your setup when you're getting your tongue weight, if so sorry in advance. But if you're doing it with the wdh tensioned that's not correct. TV tongue weight capacity is not increased by adding a wdh, unless the TV mfg explicitly states that. That is because as soon as you go over any kind of high spot in the road the full tongue weight of the trailer is right back on your TV. Just the way wdh's work.

From what you're saying I'd highly suggest that you still take your rig through a public scale once when loaded as you plan to travel, including cargo, gear, fuel, and humans. That will help you get your software calibrated if nothing else.
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Edward_Larkin View Drop Down
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Posts: 14 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 9:38pm
Sorry, I wasn't explicit in my description. Tongue weight was measured without the WDH engaged (bars disconnected,) but still attached so that the full weight of the hitch (with disconnected load bars) would sit on the rear of the TV as dead weight added to the tongue.

In fact, the BetterWeight is pretty explicit about these things. For tongue weight, it doesn't assume a WDH (though I included it in my measurements because that matches my plan of travel.) But for the WDH test, the tool is good enough to explicitly have you take a reading with the hitch disconnected to get trim of TV without any trailer or hitch, then with the WDH on, but without the load bars attached, to get an accurate tongue weight measurement with hitch and figure out how far out of "normal" you are, and then it gives you target settings for front and rear TV axle weight (in green on my screenshot,) to get the TV back to "normal" trim through distribution of weight. It then instructs you to attach the load bars to the trailer and tension the rig.

In essence, in this last state with green targets on the scales (which is where I took the screenshot) you're supposed to tension the rig (tongue jack off the ground,) check if you're "in the green" and if not, unload the rig (put the tongue jack back on the ground and de-tension the bars) and make an adjustment. Rinse and repeat until all the scales are in the green.

Note that it assumes the vehicle doesn't move during any of this (drive to a new location.) If you move at all, it's all invalid. It also assumes you're on relatively level ground, and recommends the engine be off to prevent any wiggle. It defines "level" as any place you can put your TV (and trailer) put the TV in neutral, disengage all brakes, and the rig doesn't move.

But, despite all that, I still agree with you. I fully intend to take it through a scale with my planned loads, if for no other reason then to complete the evaluation of the tool and prove to myself it's value completely. It's on the todo list (along with about 50 other things.)
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Posts: 5290 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 7:23am
Originally posted by Edward_Larkin

 
Note that it assumes the vehicle doesn't move during any of this (drive to a new location.) If you move at all, it's all invalid. It also assumes you're on relatively level ground, and recommends the engine be off to prevent any wiggle. It defines "level" as any place you can put your TV (and trailer) put the TV in neutral, disengage all brakes, and the rig doesn't move.

But, despite all that, I still agree with you. I fully intend to take it through a scale with my planned loads, if for no other reason then to complete the evaluation of the tool and prove to myself it's value completely. It's on the todo list (along with about 50 other things.)

Sounds good and I'm interested in hearing how accurate the software is in determining GCVW. 

As for "level" I'm having trouble understanding how the tool can determine whether the wdh is tensioned properly unless the rig is on a dead level surface. As soon as the TV rear axle is either higher or lower than the front and trailer axles the tension level and axle loads are going to be thrown off. 

It doesn't take much out of level to throw it off. The one time I weighed with my wdh tensioned I saw about a 100 lb difference in axle loads between entering the scale  (TV axles on the scale and the trailer off) vs exiting (TV axles off the scale and the trailer on). And the scale was only at most maybe 1/2 inch lower than the pavement at either end. 

That being said I think it doesn't really matter what either the Betterweight or scales say your wdh effect is.  The real world wdh effect is going to vary from zero to probably about 2x whatever you adjust it to depending on the flatness of the road.  If you set up the wdh on level ground per instructions  so that the front suspension height is back where it was without the trailer you'll be fine. 
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StephenH View Drop Down
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Posts: 6285 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 8:20am
I also purchased one of Curt devices. So far, I have tried it with the Frontier alone as my driveway is sloped, so I have not been able to use it for weighing the tongue weight or adjusting the tension of the hitch. I do need to get it out to a flat place to do this testing and adjusting. Right now, I would consider it a waste of money. I can't keep it plugged in at the same time as the OBDII sender that I use with the Torque app either.
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Posts: 5290 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 8:34am
Originally posted by StephenH

I can't keep it plugged in at the same time as the OBDII sender that I use with the Torque app either.

Do you find the Torque app useful? 
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Posts: 6285 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 8:58am
Actually, I do find the Torque app useful. It is not quite as useful as when I got it for use with the Escape because the Frontier lacks a sender for transmission temperature. However, it does help track other things, including a digital speed reading that compares favorably with that of the GPS unit. It shows that the speedometer speed is a little off of real speed (e.g. 55 mph is not really 55 but more like 53 mph). I find my self referring to that to confirm my speed. Other parameters displayed are helpful such as power and throttle and especially the mpg readout which can have a separate display for instantaneous and average. It lets me know when I need to let off the throttle or to take it easier up the mountain.
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Edward_Larkin View Drop Down
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Posts: 14 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 9:25am
Originally posted by offgrid

As for "level" I'm having trouble understanding how the tool can determine whether the wdh is tensioned properly unless the rig is on a dead level surface. As soon as the TV rear axle is either higher or lower than the front and trailer axles the tension level and axle loads are going to be thrown off. 

Agreed. And it's specific about being on a level surface (where a vehicle and trailer in neutral won't roll.) Finding a flat parking lot is essential. Luckily, I live in a pretty flat place. My driveway has just a little bit of a slope, but I've got a few big parking lots nearby that fit the bill just fine. I'll add that, for this specific test, the device might not need a truly "level" surface (as in, no roll,) but the grade must be even across all three axles, which is how you can ensure your WDH is not artificially loaded or unloaded by variation in grade between axles. Still, if your TV was on level ground, but your trailer was, for example, on a grade, putting the TV in neutral would cause it to roll, so the test method of no roll in neutral is sound for both getting true level, and getting zero grade change.

Originally posted by offgrid

That being said I think it doesn't really matter what either the Betterweight or scales say your WDH effect is.  The real world wdh effect is going to vary from zero to probably about 2x whatever you adjust it to depending on the flatness of the road.  If you set up the WDH on level ground per instructions  so that the front suspension height is back where it was without the trailer you'll be fine. 

Also couldn't agree more. The real world is dynamic and the pressure of the WDH will vary wildly going down the road. But, that doesn't change the fact that, as a starting point at least, setting it up on level ground to restore unladen TV trim is best. And the BetterWeigh does a fine job at that. Admittedly, a tape measure looking at the height of your wheel wells works just as good, and costs way less. So, I wouldn't buy this just for the WDH capability. But it's a nice touch.
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Posts: 14 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 9:34am
Originally posted by StephenH

I can't keep it plugged in at the same time as the OBDII sender that I use with the Torque app either.

I've also run into this. Being the gadget guy I obviously am, I have a similar device (not a Torque tool, but something called a "Go Point" purchased maybe 7 years ago, and a third party performance dashboard app.) I use it to check system metrics like fluid temperatures going down the road. Or, as my ASE certified mechanic father told me, to watch exhaust temperature as a pretty good leading indicator of load (and overload.) I don't trust the actual engine "load" PID.

But, the BetterWeigh has pretty much zero value when you actually go to tow something to a campsite. So I just swap it out when I'm doing these tests (they're all at very low speeds anyway, so the metrics I watch aren't going to make a difference.) And when I go to actually haul my rig to the campsite, I'll swap my Go Point back in.

Or, I've also considered buying an OBDII splitter.


OBDII is a bus interface, so it easily supports any number of devices (the bandwidth reduces performance, but it'll support quite a few devices.) Functionally, you're just limited by the number of connectors. So this solves that. They make a ton of variations on these. The only thing stopping me is that I don't like the dangly cables. And the OBDII port is always right at your knees, so I need to think about how I'd secure those cables properly. 
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Edward_Larkin View Drop Down
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Posts: 14 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 9:39am
Interesting. I thought Torque was an OBDII dongle plus app. But it's just the app and you can pair it with a range of OBDII readers, right?

Then that's very similar to my Go Point solution. I use it with Dash Command on my iPhone. I think it's basically the exact same thing. I do really like it. Tons of useful info.
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