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StephenH View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: My New TV
    Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 3:41pm
As for the taxing by miles, unless there is some way to specify in-state and out-of-state mileage, I would object to that. If I'm towing out west and not in my own state, I'm already paying taxes to the state in which I am towing. I would object to paying taxes on those miles again. by paying based on simple miles driven per year. However, it would be good to start a separate topic for that discussion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2020 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by offgrid

We all have choices to make. You can have a Big Mac or a salad for lunch. Neither is free but one is good for your health, the other will kill you eventually but your taste buds might be happier in the meantimeLOL



So, if I eat salad for lunch everyday, I will live forever?? This is great news. I'm gonna rent me a seasonal site at the local salad bar  Heh
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 6:52am
Podwerks,  I agree that fair is fair, So, when the fossil fuel industry subsidies and tax breaks are phased out then we can talk about ending ev road subsidies too. That's not even considering the externalities. And if some ev drivers do want to pat each other on the back, who cares? Its not harming anyone, no reason to resent it, unlike when ICE vehicle owners deliberately park blocking ev charging stations, which happens quite a bit. 

StephenH, I fully agree that in your case ev's are not ready. Nor in mine when I tow. But around 60% of American families have more than one vehicle, and about 1/3 have 3 or more. Not all of those families could consider one of those vehicles being an ev, but most could. That is an enormous market and would absorb the ev manufacturing capacity for years. It would also accelerate the deployment of fast chargers which would in turn improve the acceptance of ev's to more and more people. It took what maybe 50 years to build out the fuel service infrastructure we have now? 

In my case for example, there isn't any reason why I couldn't swap my Prius for an ev. I really like the idea of never stopping at a gas station (especially during Covid) and came close to swapping it for a Chevy Bolt this year ( I'm not personally considering a Tesla just 'cause). The terrible seats got me, I have a bad back. What's with GM anyway?  They make a great little car in almost every way and then cheap out on one little thing....That is supposed to be fixed for next year, we'll see. 

A diesel/electric hybrid, like a gas/electric hybrid like my Prius, is still an ICE vehicle, just a more efficient one. There is the Highlander Hybrid, which I think several members tow their rPods with, but it is only rated for 3500 lbs vs 5000 for my gasser, not sure why. 

I doubt that a Hi Hi is going to show much improvement in  fuel economy over the conventional V6 version while towing because the hp requirements are going to keep the ICE running pretty much all the time. Hybrids gain much of their efficiency by shutting off the ICE when hp requirements are low, and by regen braking. So most of the benefit comes in city driving (I get 45-50 mpg in the Prius whether I'm in town, on country roads, or on the freeway). Most hybrids also get improved efficiency by operating as Atkinson cycle engines which give them a longer expansion stroke than compression stroke at the expense of power density (which is made up for via the electric motor). I think the Hi Hi has a regular Otto cycle ICE. 

A diesel electric hybrid probably offers less improvement advantages than a gas/electric one does.


Even so, VW was heading that way before the infamous dieselgate scandal killed their diesel business. They even reached limited production on this 260 mpg baby. Can't tow much with it though...


mjlrpod, not forever but probably you'd gain a few years if it came down to a choice between a daily dose of artery putty (big mac and fries) and a daily trip to that salad bar.LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 8:43am
Yeah no shortage of 'good ol boys' in either camp, certainly big gas and diesel motors are sometimes  associated with hooligans and outlaws and their modified, and very loud and polluting pick-em-up-trucks....

On the subsidies, tax breaks, carbon offsets. etc, that happens on both sides of the aisle, lots of 'palm greasing' in politics and energy. Think about electricity generated with coal...for example...or natural gas...it would get very complex in a hurry to try to sort out all of the 'hidden' benefits and subsidies to either one.

Hybrids and 'plug-in hybrids' get lumped together but a plug-in gets some or maybe most of its energy from the grid when operated locally. A regular ol' run-of-the-mill hybrid like a Prius is still pulling up to the gas pumps once in awhile...so it's not an EV in the true sense, so I'm not referring to a Prius or other hybrids when I use the term 'EV'

I have a friend who has owned a first gen Prius since it was new and he has over 300,000 miles on it and I believe he has changed that big battery once? Not sure...I'd have to check. I think he said he typically sees 60 mpg if he cruises at about 60 mph.

Amazing....way better than my old motorcycle!

But you would not be able to tow an r-pod with it....darnit.

And you have to enter the cost of that battery in the overall cost of fuel or cost-per-mile. They aint cheap.

Ying Yang

The average diesel powered semi truck hauling freight, about 100,000 miles per year, contributes between $8,000 and $10,000 per year (into the highway funds of the national and state coffers) JUST in motorfuel taxes. Now multiply that times all the class 8 trucks on the road...trust me that is a LOT of money that would be gone if they suddenly could replace them all with electric semi's (which will NOT happen to any large degree in our lifetime).

But suppose it could happen...would you want all of those EV semi trucks driving for 'free'...not paying their fair share to support the roads and highways they use? I'm guessing anyone's answer is 'no'...because the feds and the states have to come up with the money SOMEHOW.

As has been said once or twice...there aint no free lunch...because, sooner or later, SOMEBODY has to pay the bill.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:21am
Offgrid: Thanks for the links. I had not heard of the VW hybrid.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:28am
Yep, its easy to get wrapped around an axle on taxes and subsidies especially when something doesn't seem fair in direct comparison. But if you dig deeper there are pretty much always "hidden" subsidies that the incumbent technology gets that aren't at all obvious at first glance.  Hard to tease the whole thing apart. 

Then there is the advantage that an incumbent technology always has because the investment in it has been made and depreciated long since. That's where the politics comes in, are the benefits of the new technology considered valuable enough to give it a helping hand to get started?

Unlike things like smart phones which are little and cheap, energy and transportation technologies require massive investments and are very slow to change. I started working in photovoltaics in 1979 and its only the past few years that solar has become a significant energy player - 40 years. 

There is a plug in Prius (Prius Prime) but it only has an ev range of 25 miles, on a good day. Started out with only 11 mile ev range. Kind silly I think, but I guess if you're only using it to go shopping around town then maybe that works. 

I doubt a gen 1 Prius could get 60 at 60. I have a gen 3 which is supposed to be more efficient and I would probably get 55 at 60 mph, if I were to drive that slow. I'm generally at 70 around here on the freeways (which is slower than most folks) which gives me 50-ish, pretty much the same fuel economy as in town or on a windy rural road. I think my average since purchase is around 48. 

Re the battery, its actually really small in the std. Prius, 1.3 kwh. But its Nickel-metal hydride so it can take tons of cycling.  if you are comfortable working with batteries and high voltage dc then it's pretty cheap to repair, generally only a cell or two needs to be replaced, I'm at 10 yearn and 150K miles and my battery is still performing fine so far....knock wood....

On heavy truck road taxes, I've heard the argument that the vast majority of road wear is from heavy vehicles. Don't know if its true or not. Should I not pay any road taxes because I don't wear out the roads? I pay taxes for the local school district and I haven't had  a kid in school for 25 years. 

It would make more sense for me to pay the road tax for all those trucks, I use that service every day in the form of the goods and services I buy, even if I stayed home never drove and bought everything via Amazon. I guess as far as proliferation of electric trucks is concerned we can wait and see, as you say its not an issue at this point. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:32am
Maybe fuel taxes should be based on the total cost of a vehicle (from raw materials, to road wear and tear, to social costs (like cancer from air pollution), to environmental damage).  Everyone seems to have his/her favorite, criticizing alternatives and ignoring one's favorite's flaws.  The whole thing seems like an exercise in arguing about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:34am
If we needed a second vehicle, I would certainly consider an electric one for local use. I'm not opposed to them. However, since my wife does not drive (has never had a license), we only need one vehicle, so it has to be one that will be suitable for long-distance towing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 9:54am
If you're not towing or hauling I think the current range of ev's, around 250-300 miles, is fine for most folks. I've made exactly one trip this year so far that pushed that distance, and there would have been a couple of level 3 chargers I could have used. Even if that had taken a whole hour I would still have been far ahead of the time I've spent at gas stations so far this year. 

But absolutely, if you tow and only have one vehicle, then its not practical, yet. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 10:55am
Yeah no doubt in my mind that trucks cause more wear on roads and bridges, just like a 747 landing causes more wear to a runway than a Piper Cub.

But also, roads and highways and bridges are generally built by the lowest bidder and there is often no warranty of any kind offered or required. 

Hey, my e-bike is not licensed, insured, taxed, titled, or registered, and I don't pay a penny to the state or feds to operate it on the roads and streets, but I can ride it on almost any road around here. I doubt I will take it up the entrance ramp to the interstate, but I could, if I wanted to risk life and limb...

I figured out the pure electrical cost to operate it one time...and it varies widely depending on a lot of factors, (pedal assist level, hills, winds, etc) but I got an average result one time of about 4 miles per penny...not counting maintenance, tires, tubes, etc. 

Some e-bikes do a lot better, some, not as good. Like I said, it varies. 

And this is ON topic....I use the e-bike to pull a trailer! A little Schwinn Pet Trailer...the pooch loves it!
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