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P-pod for dry camping?

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MarkW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarkW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: P-pod for dry camping?
    Posted: 01 Apr 2022 at 8:43am
We were within all rated limits for the tow vehicle -- just not x% below rated limits where x% is determined by no data, only by seat of the pants 'just to be safe' guessing.  We never filled water or waste tanks and did not carry anywhere nearly enough gear to put us even close to 3500#.  Tongue weight was close to, but under the rated 350#.  Total TV loading was within rated limits as well.  I know you think you need to add a 10% or 20% (or is it 30% -- how do you decide?) additional safety margin above and beyond the safety margin that the actual professional automotive engineers already designed into the vehicle.  I disagree.  

It wasn't just 4400# miles, it was driving, at times, in strong head and crosswinds, over multiple mountain passes, across long, rough unpaved roads (in Vermillion Cliffs and Escalante) and to dispersed camp sites that sometimes required 4WD and high-clearance.  We had to do a panic stop when a jackass pulled out in front of us.  It was a pretty thorough workout.  It wasn't a high-heat workout (temps were never above the low 80s and mostly lower -- especially high in the mountains), but that's OK -- we have not intention of ever camping in really hot temperatures (yuck!)

Probably not much point in going around and around more on safety margins.  Happy camping (or farming)!
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gpokluda View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gpokluda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2022 at 2:29pm
Hi Mark and welcome. Ditto what most of the replies have said. We do a mix of boondocking and hookups and for that, the Rpod works great. As others have said, rough roads are tough on the Pod so you will want to go slow and inspect the trailer on your return. Your TV may be a little light for the task at hand. If you want to stick with your TV you may want to look at a trailer with a bit lower profile and higher ground clearance like some of the trail ready tear drops that are out there, but at the end of the day, you go with what you got.

All the best! Keep us posted what you decide.


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MarkW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarkW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2022 at 4:55pm
If you want to stick with your TV you may want to look at a trailer with a bit lower profile and higher ground clearance like some of the trail ready tear drops that are out there, but at the end of the day, you go with what you got.

Ours isn't a Pod, but similar in size and weight--probably closest to a 171 (no slide), but a little taller and wider.  Anyway, ground clearance really wasn't a problem.  We aren't trying to overland, just get into some dispersed sites that required a few bits of what I guess you'd say is light off-roading.  Rougher than getting to some of the camp sites were a couple of long unpaved roads -- particularly Rock House Valley Road that stretches about 30 miles across Vermillion Cliffs.  The problem was sections of washboard.  Two things did go a little wrong that time.  First, one of the rear stab jacks vibrated part way down and then did drag at one point and bent a little (but I was able to bend it back).  The other was that our double rear dinette window wasn't fully latched and worked it's way partly open and ... the dust!!!  Not a fun cleanup (I wished we had that propane-powered shop vac).  But it was worth it get to the trailhead for the Buckskin Gulch slot canyon which is spectacular.  Checking out the trailer post-trip is a good idea.  We've been home a few days now and have done a thorough cleanout of the trailer and things look to no worse for wear.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dirt Sifter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2022 at 9:29pm
gpokluda, had you read the most recent posts you would have seen Mark didn't buy an Rpod (complete with pictures) and that he finished his trip without serious issues. He got things done well. Kinda the reason the admin's say to read all the posts before we write one.
Greg n Deb 2020 195 HRE
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2022 at 5:37am
If you are (by actual weighing, not estimates based on empty weight specs) within all your vehicles' limitations (all 3 axles, tow vehicle max, trailer max, combined vehicle max, tongue max), and you otherwise meet the towing requirements of your vehicle (eg
frontal area) then you are legal.

Beyond that there are cases of rpods (and many other trailer models) developing sway with tongue weight at or below 10% of trailer weight so you should stay above that under all loading conditions.

Towing safety factors beyond these are up to the operator, most here want at least 10-20% above that to improve vehicle control under extreme/emergency conditions. Some want much more than that based in their personal experience and risk tolerance.

As for the validity of using a 4000 mile trip as an assesent of safety, it is important to understand the statistics of low probability events and how safety incidents occur.

Nearly all incidents involve multiple coincident factors. Several things have to go wrong at once, otherwise such incidents would be much more common. For example, a wreck might not occurs because of a marginal tow vehicle combined with an idiot pulling out in front, but might if those two events were combined with a slick road surface or a significant crosswind, or both.

When safety experts evaluate these incidents they generally see a combination of several of these adverse factors with one or more unsafe behaviors by the operator. These unsafe behaviors are reinforced if nothing bad happens and become the operator's norm. That's just human nature and it's difficult to counteract. That's why modern safety traing focusses on identifying and enhancing the operator's awareness of his behavior, rather than just training against a list of rules.

In this case the behavior is travelling with a borderline rig, and it's reinforced by thousands of miles without incident, until ultimately a combination of adverse factors can combine to result in an accident. Remember that serious accidents are thankfully very rare events and take millions of miles of travel to obtain good statistics for.

In any case, if youre legal, additional safety factors are up to you and I have no objection, we are all free within our legal limits to operate our vehicles as we wish.   What I do object to is encouraging others, who might be new to trailer towing and may not yet have the skills needed to weigh or operate their rigs safely, to take such unnecessary risks. That in my view shows lack of regard for others' well being.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2022 at 6:19am
MarkW, I'm glad you had a wonderful trip and had no serious issues with your trailer or TV.  As long as  you keep the weight down below the maximum capacity both in towing weight and combined gross vehicle weight, especially with the awareness of being close to the limit as you drive, you'll probably be fine.  The challenge will be to resist the temptation to carry the few extra things that could push you over the limit and to be prepared to see signs of wear and tear on your drive train.  

I was advised, when I decided to sell our 172 and was looking for a trailer with a little more room, that the slightly wider [6"], higher [another 6"], and heavier [about 500# gvw], and longer [3'] Sonoma 167rb would result in much poor fuel economy, much more problematic to drive.  Though I was much closer to the maximum combined vehicle weight, I was still within the limits.  I had no issues towing the new trailer and the fuel consumption was exactly the same as it was when I pulled our Pod.  In fact, the under chassis wheel configuration, instead of the cantilevered axle of the rPod, made towing easier because I needed a foot less side to side clearance for the trailer.  So much for the advice I got.

So, enjoy your trailer and travels.  And, as they say in the Boy Scouts, be prepared.
Never leave footprints behind.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarkW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2022 at 9:19am
Beyond that there are cases of rpods (and many other trailer models) developing sway with tongue weight at or below 10% of trailer weight so you should stay above that under all loading conditions.

Yes, I agree that trailer sway is really the biggest safety concern.  But a larger vehicle doesn't seem to help much in that (looking at all the dashcam trailer crash videos, you can see it doesn't take a very large trailer to roll a pickup when the trailer goes sideways).  A larger TV only really helps to the extent that it makes it easier to increase tongue weight without exceeding max tongue weight.  

...most here want at least 10-20% above that to improve vehicle control under extreme/emergency conditions

But, AFAIK, you don't have any data at all to show what the effects of a 10%, or 20% or 50% margin with respect to tow ratings has.  Does it actually improve safety in extreme conditions?  And how much?  You simply don't know.  It's just a guess.  I'm not blaming you for not having such data.  I don't think anybody really has it (there are so many possible combinations of TV and trailer and even for a given combination, things will vary based on the hitch setup, loading of the vehicles, tires, weather conditions, speeds, etc).

As for the validity of using a 4000 mile trip as an assesent of safety, it is important to understand the statistics of low probability events and how safety incidents occur.

It is true, though, that driving is very safe (even while towing -- though obviously less so).  It's the reason why safety problems with autonomous vehicles took so long to emerge.  So, no, a single 4400 mile trip can't tell us about safety at a level of a handful of crashes per million miles driven.  But it can rule out the idea that the configuration just doesn't work (e.g. that it simply can't handle mountains or wind or rough roads or will break down and overheat, etc).  

but might if those two events were combined with a slick road surface or a significant crosswind, or both.

Is my stopping distance while towing longer or shorter than it would be if I were driving the larger Subaru Ascent vs our Subaru Outback?  The trailer brakes provide the stopping power for the weight of the trailer in both cases (and the vehicle brakes for the vehicles).  

And have you heard of the Peltzman Effect?  This suggests that people with heavier tow vehicles may be more likely to load the trailer more heavily (but the trailer brake rotors don't get bigger), drive faster, drive in more adverse conditions, etc.

What I do object to is encouraging others, who might be new to trailer towing and may not yet have the skills needed to weigh or operate their rigs safely, to take such unnecessary risks. 

What I object to is confidently telling people that they should allow a 10% or 20% margin, when you don't have any data backing that up.  You may be discouraging people from getting into RVing at all by telling them they have to go out and buy big new TV before they even get started.  But in the end, both of us are just guys commenting on the Internet -- nobody should take our opinions as any kind of gospel.

My safety advice for towing would be less about the TV (other than staying within specs).  First, I agree that getting the tongue weight high enough to minimize sway is critical.  After that, it would about behavior.  Drive slow -- especially until you gain more experience.  And avoid driving in bad weather (there's an old saying from flying something like "90% of those killed in IFR conditions are buried on VFR days").  If you have to wait somewhere for an extra day or two until a storm blows over, do it (as we chose to do in the Wichita Mountains on this trip -- we were really ready to move on, but the predicted winds were crazy high, so we hunkered down).

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Post Options Post Options   Quote MarkW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2022 at 9:36am
The challenge will be to resist the temptation to carry the few extra things that could push you over the limit and to be prepared to see signs of wear and tear on your drive train.  

Our tow vehicle helps with that temptation.  In particular, it helps with being able to tell my wife why we need to keep things light and can't fill the tanks.  Which I don't want to do anyway (I don't want to stay in campgrounds with hookups and dump stations, worry about freezing when temps drop at night in the desert, or even listen to the loud water pump).  She now (on her own) has made a list of things she didn't use and doesn't need on the next trip (and wants to know how soon we can go).  She's quite OK with the insect sprayer shower.  Our trailer felt very luxurious compared to, for example, the Canadian couple with a rooftop tent on their Highlander who were making do with sponge baths ;)

As for the drivetrain, towing adds wear and tear regardless.  But when Subaru came out with the Outback XT models like ours, they dropped in the drivetrain from the larger, heavier 3-row Ascent that has a 5000# rating, so it should be up to the task.  But we'll see.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gpokluda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2022 at 1:22pm
Apologies. Just getting used to the site. I'll make sure not be disruptive next time Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2022 at 6:06am
The ability of a heavier vehicle to allow an increase in tongue weight without exceeding max tongue weight is not to be underestimated. That headroom tends to be the limiting factor with light tow vehicles, because the TV manufacturers generally set max tongue weights at 10% of max trailer weight. and 10% is very close to or below the minimum needed to avoid sway in trailers like rpods. Also, that percentage changes as trailer loading changes, making it even more difficult to stay within specs.   In my 179 it changed by about 3% between full fresh water and full gray water tank conditions, and was the limiting factor in my loading capacity.

Of course having higher safety factors in towing and load ratings increases the capacity of a rig to handle extreme conditions. To say otherwise is just plain absurd: Or troll behavior, take your pick.

Not towing: safe
Towing within limits less safe
Towing over limits: unsafe.

Hmm. The 3 state quantum theory of towing.

Except that trailers aren't subatomic particles and outside the quantum realm physical phenomena do not reside in discrete states. Controllability and towing safety will follow a monotonically decreasing function as the weight increases. That is not a guess, there is no question.

And a larger vehicle will of course handle a swaying trailer better than a lighter one. How many times have we seen a untility trailer behind an F250 swaying all over while the truck tracks along as if planted? Higher mass, greater contact patch friction, siffer suspension, and longer wheelbase will all resist sway.

All mechanical and structural engineering involves the application of safety factors. Those are established either by standard practice, engineering judgement or they are regulatory. In towing they regulatory augmebnted by individual judgement guided by standard practice. Very few experienced operators choose to tow right at the OEM ratings.

But if you want to that's ok with me, as I said. Just don't imply that your use case (and empty box with no use of the onboard plumbin) is a normal one. It is highly unusual, placing anyone who might attempt to replicate it while loading more normally at risk.

Your statements indicate that you don't understand how trailer brakes work and what they can and can't do. First, there are no rotors They are 1950s technology drum brakes, modulated by a poorly regulated electromagnetic system. They are notoriously weak, grabby, unreliable   and imbalanced. Pull your wheels and inspect them as you should be doing and see for yourself. So absolutely, you are largely depending on your TV bydraulic disk brakes wih their
nice ABS and load balanced control systems for both emergency stops and control on grades. And if course a larger TV has more reserve braking capacity. Bring along an IR thermometer and see which brakes are getting too hot (or worse, not getting hot at all) under various conditions. It's an eye opener.of sure   

Not sure what you mean by a rig simply not being able to handle a trip. I have no doubt that any modern rig could negotiate just about anything within reason, taken cautionsly and slowly enough. I used to drive a loaded 1960 40hp VW bus over any number of mountain passes and bad roads I managed all of 10 mph up and down in low gear, it took forever and wasn't very practical but I could do it and not cook eithér the engine or brakes in the process By comparison stuff today is wildly overpowered and overbraked. That was never my concern here, highway safety is.

Sure have head of Peltzman. Did you not read my last post? I described tbe complacency effect there. It is certainly easy to just add more stuff and be overloaded with a larger TV. This is why I said that the rig should be taken to a scale and actually weighed. They apply your safety factor to that.

BTW, did you ever actually weigh your rig or are you still just guessing what your loads are?

No one has suggested buying a big new TV. I for one never buy new vehicles, there are plenty of great used vehicles and it's been my experience that vehicle size does not corellate with price much if at all. Lots of lighter vehicles cost more that heavier ones depending on what options or brand cachet they might have. Or if you are truly enamored of a particular TV you can get a trailer that is a good match for that vehicle.

I do agree with your driving safety recommendations and would adctd to always drive as if you your brakes will not be available, meaning use engine braking and decelerate early.

As an instrument rated pilot though I don't get that reference, Is it intended to imply that I shouldn't fly in IMC despite having the rating currency, and equipment to do so?








1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
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