P-pod for dry camping? |
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MarkW
Groupie Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
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Topic: P-pod for dry camping? Posted: 04 Apr 2022 at 1:01pm |
Of course having higher safety factors in towing and load ratings increases the capacity of a rig to handle extreme conditions. To say otherwise is just plain absurd: Or troll behavior, take your pick.
Unless people respond to having a higher rating by loading up the trailer more heavily (which is very a natural human tendency) Controllability and towing safety will follow a monotonically decreasing function as the weight increases. You actually what the relationship looks like. Is the function even linear? Does a 10% increase in weight reduce safety by 10%? 25% 1%? All of those values are consistent with a monotonical relationship -- but are VERY different. And you really don't have ANY idea which it is. First, there are no rotors Some trailers have disc brakes (my sailboat trailer does). My travel trailer has drums, but I noticed no conditions where they were not performing as expected. "Not sure what you mean by a rig simply not being able to handle a trip. " Breakdowns. Overheating. Structural failures. Getting stuck. Not being able to climb steep mountain grades at more than 40MP, etc. I am sure you could think of other scenarios. "BTW, did you ever actually weigh your rig or are you still just guessing what your loads are?" I am not guessing. I have the exact weight of the dry trailer of 2825# (detailed down to 'including the weight of two full propane bottles') when it left the factory. I have no more reason to distrust those numbers than I do the vehicle rating numbers from Subaru. I'm the original owner, so I know what's been added to increase the dry weight (nothing). I also know what we load into it (clothing, food, kitchenware, some tools and equipment, water in a 6 gallon jerry can -- certainly less than 300#). I do have a scale for tongue weight. No one has suggested buying a big new TV. I for one never buy new vehicles Sigh. New, meaning a new vehicle for the owner -- one that they don't already own, not necessarily new as in brand new from the dealer. "As an instrument rated pilot though I don't get that reference" Really? You're an instrument-rated pilot but not only had never heard that but can't even imagine what it means? Well, OK, here's one random online reference via google. The point is that the usual time between a fatal crash and the funerals is about enough time to for any bad weather to have cleared out and if the pilot had waited, they and their passengers would be flying in the that good weather rather than being buried in it. I am not a pilot myself, but come from a family of pilots. My Dad and Uncle were pilots, and when I was a kid, we used to travel in the family plane on vacation and to visit relatives. I never took lessons but did a fair amount of flying from the right seat with my Dad. To his disappointment, I never became a pilot myself, though. It's just a more dangerous activity than I want to do, especially having a family. It's about 20 times more dangerous per mile than driving (which, in turn, is around 20 times more dangerous than flying commercial). I guess I'm a little surprised, given your attitudes here that you'd be willing to engage in such an inherently risky activity. Or are you a commercial jet pilot (that's incredibly safe) |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 5:15am |
Sigh. If you have a higher rig load rating then you have more capacity to carry weight. But if you succumb to your human tendency to add load you can consume that capacity and be back where you started or worse. And the human capability to estimate how much things weigh is not very good. Hence the need to weigh your rig fully loaded for travel. Added safety factors should be determined based on that weight, not on empty weight.
I'll say it again, my empty trailer weighed about 250-300 lbs more than the number on the sticker. I could not account for that other than simply that the sticker was wrong. You are free to assume that I used an uncalibrated scale (I didn't) or am unable to perform basic addition and subtraction (I can) and discount my statement, but others have been surprised as well. So there is indeed good reason to doubt the sticker weight, but of course you aren't really looking for a reason, you want it to just be ok so you can do what you already decided to do anyway. That is a dangerous aspect of human nature too. I've also weighed numerous airplanes. If they haven't been weight recently they always weigh more, often substantially more, than their weight and balance data inducates, which is supposed to be carefully obtained either by direct weighing or calculated per FAA regs. Here's an aviation saying for you: airplanes and people both gain weight as they age. So, yes you are guessing your rig weight unless you actually weigh using a calibrated scale. It's very easy to do. Sigh again. Do you understand the difference between a monotonic and a linear function? I can say without guessing that the controllability and therefore the safety of a rig monotonically decreases as load increases. There are not going to be any weird points where the controllability goes flat or gets better as the load increases. That is magical thinking. I'd be quite surprised if it's linear however. Well I knew you don't have a trailer with electric over hydraulic disc brakes. Those are very expensive complex systems not for the likes of mere mortals like us with little rpods or similar TT's. If you could afford such a system I doubt you would be towing a boxy TT with a little bitty SUV. Many many people on this forum and elsewhere have had problems with their drum trailer brakes. FR uses very poor quality insulation displacement connectors which have a bad habit of going open or to a high resistance connection resulting in magnets that don't get activated or are very unbalanced. Others have had issues with their self adjustment stars either not self adjusting or getting overtightened. Others have had problems even with brand new trailers because the brakes never got properly burnished per Lippert procedures. Or warped drums or poor quality brake linings that crumble in the drums I've had some of these issues myself. Do an advanced search on this forum as see for yourself. So I'd recommend that you check your brake operation regularly especially as you seem to intend to rely heavily on your trailer brake function. An IR thermometer is a very easy and inexpensive way to do it. You're looking for consistent temps side to side on each axle and also for no one axle on your rig to be running very hot while others are cool. Check after descending a significant grade, takes just a few seconds. But of course you already know everything is ok without checking. Shiny new sounded like off the new dealer lot to me. My point was simply that there are many choices that allow folks to have a capable tow vehicle at an affordable price which they can use to camp comfortably utilizing all their trailer's systems. It is very unusual for a family not to want to use the systems the trailer comes with. Vehicles last a very long time nowadays if well maintained so no reason to be afraid of buying used. I personally would never buy new unless perhaps if there was a "must have" feature of that particular vehicle which was unobtainable in the used market, like for example the vehicle to home charging capability of the new electric F15O. As for your aviation saying, if you were involved in aviation you'd know that there are at least as many of those as there are pilots. So I hadn't heard that one. My personal favorite IMC one is about avoiding flying around in the clouds with the rocks in them. Do you understand the difference between IMC, VMC, IFR, and VFR? Your article was about scud running. That is an activity VFR pilots engage in. The accident rate doing that is very high. It's called "VFR flight into IMC". I obtained my instrument rating largely so I would never be tempted to scud run. I can file an IFR flight plan and climb through that low cloud layer to an altitude where it's safe to fly, and usually clear of clouds. Altitude is your friend in aviation, I never fly low except when in the airport environment. Why would you be surprised that I fly? Is there something that suggested to you that I am risk averse? Life is full of risk/reward decisions, if you take no risks and just stay home you'll probably die young from lack of excersize or brain atrophy. So I fly myself and my wife because to us the rewards are well worth the risks. I understand and manage the risks, making sure that the aircraft and I are both properly prepared and that the weather conditions are well within our capabilities. I do most of my own maintenance as I own an EAB aircraft, and I actually listen to what my A&P/IA/CFII tells me, who has far more experience with stuff that goes wrong with airplanes that I do, and never just charge in making the assumption that everything will be fine. I assume it's not fine unless I came prove that it is. Since your decision making indicates that you unwilling to do that I would agree with your decision that aviating to too risky for you to engage in. I'm retired so I don't need to be anywhere at a particular hour. I'll just wait for better conditions. "Time to spare, go by air", there is another good aviation saying for you. And btw I weigh my aircraft and don't rely on the math skills of some long dead A&P who might have made up some numbers when he did a weight and balance calc 40 years ago, or before the aircraft got that pretty paint job that wasn't accounted for. And of course I never exceed max weight and stay well below that when flying out of high density altitude fields or in IMC. Enough banter. I think we've both made our positions and methods abundantly clear by this point. Enjoy your trailer and good luck to you. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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Dirt Sifter
Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2018 Location: Right side OR Online Status: Offline Posts: 170 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 7:36am |
Personally, I'm thinking Mark W gets a kick out of pulling your tail offgrid. I think he's been doing this just to get your goat, as he's made his points several times. It's been almost as much fun following this as reading Mondays at the tire shop on another forum.
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Greg n Deb 2020 195 HRE
'07 Tundra 5.7L., '17 Tacoma 3.5L. Both with tow packages 1 Puggle, 1 Chihuahua support staff |
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MarkW
Groupie Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 7:47am |
"So there is indeed good reason to doubt the sticker weight"
In the case where you are not the original owner or where you are relying a spec, not the manufacturers statement of the weight when it left the factory with two full propane bottles. This isn't a number they could fudge without facing legal difficulties. For fiberglass boats, it's a different story -- you can't trust the specs because the actual weight depends on the fiberglass layup (and how careful the workers were being at the time). Weights will differ from boat to boat of the same model (and all will generally heavier than advertised). But Gulfstream attested to the actual weight of my trailer when it rolled out of the factory (with those full propane tanks). They'd face legal liability if they were faking or lying about it. Sigh again. Do you understand the difference between a monotonic and a linear function? I do, but apparently you don't. A linear function is one kind of monotonic function, but there are lots of others. The point being, as I said, if you decrease weight by 10%, does that increase safety by 10%? Or 1%? Or 50%? Or 0.1%? All of those are consistent with some monotonic function, but you have no idea which. And in fact, we both *know* it's not even a monotonic function because you can increase safety by adding weight when that weight is added to increase tongue weight when it is too low. It's possible that adding weight (especially weight that lowers the center of gravity) may increase safety in some conditions. A heavier trailer may (or may not) handle high winds better than a lightly loaded one. A full tank of water may be better than half a tank that can slosh back and forth. There are a lot of complexities. "So I'd recommend that you check your brake operation regularly" I check it every time I hook up by hitting the brake controller and making sure the trailer brakes respond -- don't you? "Well I knew you don't have a trailer with electric over hydraulic disc brakes. Those are very expensive complex systems not for the likes of mere mortals like us with little rpods or similar TT's." Hydraulic disc brakes aren't that expensive. The disc brake upgrade kit for my sailboat boat trailer was about $500 when I bought it (though that was probably ten years ago) "If you could afford such a system I doubt you would be towing a boxy TT with a little bitty SUV." We could afford just about any RV on the road if that was a high enough priority, but RVing is just one of many things we like to do -- no reason to dump in more money than necessary. Going small was an intentional choice to be able to go to smaller, quieter, more scenic camping spots. We looked at some of the pricier small trailers (Lance, for example. And our friend were trying to talk us into one of these that they own). But we read of problems with the Lance with sagging torsion axles and the big slideout, the Altos seemed more cramped inside -- and why spend twice as much as you need to? We also looked at bigger TVs. Alternatives included a 4Runner (but it would have been a thirsty, less comfortable daily driver), Grand Cherokee (nice, but I don't trust reliability long term), and 3 row crossovers like the Ascent, Pilot, and Telluride. But with the kids grown, we just didn't need another 3 row vehicle. And with the 3rd row folded (which it always would be), you just don't get that much extra cargo space. Vehicles last a very long time nowadays if well maintained so no reason to be afraid of buying used. I personally would never buy new unless perhaps if there was a "must have" feature of that particular vehicle which was unobtainable in the used market, like for example the vehicle to home charging capability of the new electric F15O. They do last a long time, but used vehicle prices are very high -- in my judgement, they are not a good deal right now (the same is true of travel trailers -- used prices are crazy). The first x years of a cars life are its best years, and I'd rather enjoy those years myself. And we can afford it. I do most of my own maintenance as I own an EAB aircraft You can stop right there. The safety record of EAB aircraft is quite bad even compared to general aviation as a whole. No way I'd even go for a ride in one of those things. Best thing, I think, that happened to my Dad as a pilot was developing an epoxy allergy and not being able to complete the plane he was building. I agree, though, this is probably enough for now.
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MarkW
Groupie Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 11:01am |
Personally, I'm thinking Mark W gets a kick out of pulling your tail offgrid. I think he's been doing this just to get your goat, as he's made his points several times. It's been almost as much fun following this as reading Mondays at the tire shop on another forum.
I'm not trolling -- I haven't said anything I don't think is right. But sure, it's possible that there's some entertainment value nonetheless.
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 11:20am |
Yeah he's trying to pull my tail, that's what trolls do, but his arguments are in general poorly considered or just plain silly and its easy to see through them. As I've said I have no objection to him doing whatever he wants within legal limits, and maybe not even then as long as I don't have to share the road with him. But I do feel a responsibility to help other forum readers, who may not follow these threads, to make safe decisions rather than just say to themselves that that guy is towing that great big trailer with a tiny little crossover so I'm gonna do the same.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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MarkW
Groupie Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 12:22pm |
"... but his arguments are in general poorly considered or just plain silly and its easy to see through them"
When you post a link to substantiate your position in ANY of our points of disagreement, that'll be the first time. You never back up any of your claims with actual data. Pick a point where you think I'm wrong and show us the data backing you up. We'll wait. |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 12:41pm |
Dont hold your breath.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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Colt
Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2019 Online Status: Offline Posts: 383 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 1:27pm |
The UVW of 2950 of my 180 is close. With some canned food, full water heater, pots, pans, etc. towels/sheets, cleaning supplies, full propane and 1 battery, everything I need to pull out and leave save clothes, fresh water and food, my 180 weighs 3122 lbs with about 14% on the tongue.
You'll be fine as long as you don't go crazy. Get your water at the edge of civilization, so you don't have to haul it over half of Georgia. My 'pod has been great, but if you want to delete appliances, I'd buy something else, or order one built without the stuff you don't want. Plus, you will sell it one day. Do you really want to pay extra and immediately reduce its value? |
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John
'16 R-Pod 180 |
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MarkW
Groupie Joined: 25 Jan 2021 Location: Michigan Online Status: Offline Posts: 54 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 06 Apr 2022 at 2:19pm |
My 'pod has been great, but if you want to delete appliances, I'd buy something else, or order one built without the stuff you don't want. Plus, you will sell it one day. Do you really want to pay extra and immediately reduce its value?
If experience is any guide, we may never sell it. We've bought one house, one cottage, one sailboat, have had them all for over 20 years and never sold any of them. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being the same with the trailer. The most likely thing would be eventually handing it down to one of our kids. The only thing we still might delete is the A/C. Meaning only taking it out, putting in another skylight vent and storing the A/C somewhere. We'd much rather have more natural light in that end of the trailer than A/C we'll probably never use (man that thing is loud!). But if the new buyer wanted it, they could have it. The only reason the A/C is still there is the effort involved in making the change. And I'm really not sure what we'd trade up to. I don't want to go bigger and don't really like more expensive smaller trailers that much. I'm not keen on the smaller Airstreams, for example. Big beautiful windows...in the front of the trailer by the bed!? No, that's wrong! Nearly all the time, the front of the trailer faces the other campers -- we don't want to look at them or them at us (especially when we're in bed ) The biggest windows and dinette should be in the back of the trailer -- or at least on the side -- where you're looking at the scenery rather than your neighbors. Even in places where we had no neighbors and were able to back the trailer into a place where we had an expansive view over a valley, there would have been no way to achieve that view from the front of the trailer. And then we wanted the bed at one end and dinette at the other so one person could stay up later or get up earlier and not disturb the one who's sleeping. We like, too, that our bed almost feels like it's in own cabin. Our heads are behind the bathroom wall, so a short curtain seals off the rest and it's quite separate and light doesn't get in. In short, it wasn't a random choice and there aren't many other options that meet all those criteria.
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