Tow Vehicles - Toyota Goes Turbo |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
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Topic: Tow Vehicles - Toyota Goes Turbo Posted: 08 Oct 2021 at 8:33am |
I used to oppose nuclear power for the same reasons raised here. But I changed my mind about 20 years ago. The problem with these discussions is that they are theoretical in nature, theres no sense of urgency.
It's not an either or thing anymore, it's all of the above. We are out of time. Any viable low or no carbon energy source needs to be deployed as soon as possible. All of them have downsides, but none of the downsides are as bad as flooded cities or whole states turning into cinders. Storage is not a restriction on the deployment of renewables today. On a local scale in a few areas yes but nationally and globally not at all. Plenty of electricity markets with low renewable penetration that can handle much more. A kw of solar in say Appalachia reduces carbon emissions by about the same amount as a kw in northern California does. The benefit of doing that is that it's very fast, cheap, and not subject to much in the way of NIMBY issues. Other low or no carbon options, especially nukes, take much longer. We should do them, but not wait for them. We should deploy grid storage too, and utilize vehicle to grid (V2G) technology with EVs for storage as well. Those should be deployed first in those markets that are already saturated with renewables, so that they can continue to add solar and wind. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 5:41pm |
One of the big problems with nuclear power is waste disposal. Everyone seems to want to put the waste in someone else's back yard. It appears that they have come up with a pretty good waste burial system in Norway that should be good for a very, very long time. I don't think it'd work, though, in areas with a lot of active seismic events. Also, with rising sea levels, coastal installations are more problematic.
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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6289 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 2:36pm |
People are nervous about nuclear power. Nuclear accidents such as Windscale (Great Britain), Three Mile Island (US), Chernobyl (USSR), and Fukushima Daichi (Japan) have made people leery of nuclear power. However, fusion is still a dream. We need energy and we need it to be clean, safe, and inexpensive. If we learn hte lessons of the past and design new nuclear power stations to be inherently safer and get over the fear, we can have nuclear power as a viable option.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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TheBum
Senior Member Joined: 26 Feb 2016 Location: Texas Online Status: Offline Posts: 1407 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 1:37pm |
I've always thought that nuclear energy isn't given a fair shake. It's certainly more reliable from a power delivery standpoint than either solar or wind and it's carbon neutral.
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Alan
2022 R-Pod 196 "RaptoRPod" 2022 Ram 1500 Lone Star 4x4 Three cats |
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GlueGuy
Senior Member Joined: 15 May 2017 Location: N. California Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 1:33pm |
I do think that nuclear energy has not been explored enough. All the early nuclear power plants were monstrous affairs that just made it even more unpalatable. I've see some new designs for smaller neighborhood-size micro-nukes that look like they could solve a lot of problems. The disposal issue is still there, but I think it is solvable as well.
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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 2:49pm |
That is in fact the lay version of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy (disorder) in a system always increases. The first law is conservation of energy, the third is that the energy in a closed system goes to zero at absolute zero, which can never be reached. So, a physicist has famously expressed those 3 laws as: 1) you can't win, 2) you can't break even, 3) and you can't get out of the game. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 2:22pm |
Looks like we're all in agreement: There's no such thing as a free lunch.
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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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offgrid
Senior Member Joined: 23 Jul 2018 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5290 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 2:11pm |
Hydrogen has been explored plenty, it's a waste of time. It cannot ever be anywhere near as efficient as batteries. The fossil fuel industry has lobbied for it for years because it's made from their products. It is not more efficient when made using renewables. It's really quite like corn ethanol, a dead end that has been kept alive by special interest groups far too long.
As for lithium mining, none of what you are describing is as bad as the environmental impacts of petroleum production are, not even counting the burning of the stuff. As I said all options have negative impacts, it's a matter of which are worse. The only other option is less vehicles on the road driving less miles, so we can all take public transportation when possible. But that's not likely to happen. For stationary grid storage there are many options that might be and probably are better than Li batteries. Pumped storage for one is very well proven and efficient, but it's difficult to site because you need reservoirs at the top and bottom of a mountain. That raises NIMBY issues yet again. Nothing comes for free. Re energy replenishment time, for me, if I save that 5 minutes at the gas pump 90% of the time by charging at home I'll happily accept 25 minutes the other 10% of the time. If you do the math I've cut my total energy replenishment time in half compared to using gasoline. If I spent 90% of my time on the road travelling long distances that would be different, but again that is an unusual use case. |
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
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StephenH
podders Helping podders - pHp Joined: 29 Nov 2015 Location: Wake Forest, NC Online Status: Offline Posts: 6289 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 1:20pm |
The issue of generation of hydrogen from non-carbon sources is that one needs quite a bit of electricity to break the bonds and separate oxygen from hydrogen by electrolysis. Then one would be using the hydrogen to generate electricity to power the vehicle. Overall, it seems to be a very inefficient process. Then the energy density of hydrogen is very low.
One can compress hydrogen, but only so much as the weight of the pressure vessel increases to contain that pressure. If one liquefies the hydrogen by cooling it to cryogenic temperatures, that would decrease the pressure and increase the density, but then we would need to be driving rolling Dewar flasks to keep it from flashing into vapor. Imagine a crash in one where the insulation of the container is compromised. The hydrogen would vaporize and spread. Then any spark would set it off. It wouldn't be a pretty sight. The same would apply to any fuel that is a vapor at temperatures normally encountered in driving.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
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lostagain
Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Location: Quaker Hill, CT Online Status: Offline Posts: 2587 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 12:16pm |
If hydrogen can be obtained using solar and wind, then it may be more viable. The technology needs to be explored. It may not pan out, but I seem to recall people saying the same thing about electric cars many years ago. Who knows what efficiencies will be developed. Clearly, we should not use it if it can only be obtained with the burning of fossil fuels.
As for lithium, its mining is very damaging to the environment, especially where it is mostly located. It uses staggering amounts of water where water is very scarce, leaves dangerous chemical behind which contaminate what's left of aquifers needed for local people's food production and domestic use, and contaminates vast tracts of land, especially in Chile, Bolivia and Argentina. It isn't practical to recycle at this point, though eventually that may change. It isn't really practical in large scale energy storage either. Take a look at this discussion about the extractions and use of lithium: https://interestingengineering.com/clean-evs-and-dirty-lithium-mining-business I should add regarding water use: Much of S. America has been in a protracted and extreme drought. The water extraction of lithium is really not sustainable. |
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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
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