R-pod Owners Forum Homepage

This site is free to use.
Donations benefit a non-profit Girls Softball organization

Forum Home Forum Home > Non-pod Discussion Forums > General non-pod discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Tow Vehicles - Toyota Goes Turbo
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Tow Vehicles - Toyota Goes Turbo

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Message
lostagain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2587
Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tow Vehicles - Toyota Goes Turbo
    Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 10:17am
Looks like Toyota is going turbo with its new line of hybrid trucks. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/19/toyota-unveils-new-2022-tundra-pickup-truck-with-new-hybrid-engine.html
This puts more pressure on GM and Fiat/Chrysler to come up with some gasoline fueled turbo boosted engines.
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 1:41pm
That drivetrain have been predicted for the new Tundra for awhile, the old Tundra was getting pretty long in the tooth. It's not a new drivetrain, Toyota has decades of experience with turbos, and the Lexus LS00 has had pretty much the same twin turbo 3.5 V6 since 2017.

It's this line from the article that caught my attention though:

Automakers have increasingly started to offer alternative powertrain options ahead of an influx of all-electric pickups in the market in the coming years.

The implucatio is that all of these ICE based alternatives are going to seem like antiquated stop gaps is a few short years. Hybrids in passenger cars have been around for about 25 years now, and are now losing ground quickly to EVs.

That's ok if you only keep your vehicle a few years but if you plan to keep them for 15-20 years like I do it's not so good.

As for Toyota, personally I'm done with them, at least till they prove they have changed direction on EVs. They seem to have spent more efforts in recent years lobbying against improved environmental standards rather than working on solutions.
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
lostagain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2587
Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 2:07pm
When one drills down deeply into the full environmental cost of any vehicle powered by something other than animal/human power, it usually turns out that it is costlier and more damaging than the promoters have claimed.  Even electric vehicles are no panacea.  The mining of lithium and other rare earths for the batteries, is far more destructive than Mr. Musk would like us to believe.  A good deal of the electricity for charging those lithium batteries comes from power plants using carbon based fuels.  

The solar panels and wind generators also use raw materials that are not always environmentally friendly.  That's not to say we shouldn't urgently explore alternative energy means of propulsion for vehicles, but we need to be honest with ourselves about the harm they can also cause.  The law of unintended consequences reigns over us all.

As for Toyota's new line of trucks they're way out of my budget, so it's just a curiosity for me.
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost
Back to Top
GlueGuy View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 May 2017
Location: N. California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2628
Post Options Post Options   Quote GlueGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2021 at 2:57pm
I saw that about the Tundra a week or so ago. Interesting that they are offering it in a hybrid. That combo could be very good for short-trip mileage.

The whole lithium thing is going to be interesting as battery technology evolves. We may not be around to see where it eventually goes (or doesn't).

Yes, electric vehicles do put strain on the grid, and what environmental impact it has (or doesn't have) depends a lot on where you live.

I remember many years ago there was a guy on talk radio claiming that solar power would never "
pencil out" and wanted to see solar powerbanned.

Yet today, solar power is among the lowest cost power options available. I think when (if?) we ever sort out the storage issue, it might make a real difference.

It's interesting to note that there are times during the long days of summer, there are periods when the California power grid runs at negative cost. That's a slightly misleading way to characterize it, but the reality is that the solar input to the California grid is so high, that the state exports the excess power to surrounding states, and they are paying more for the energy than it costs to produce.

bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost
Back to Top
TheBum View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1407
Post Options Post Options   Quote TheBum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2021 at 11:09am
Originally posted by lostagain

When one drills down deeply into the full environmental cost of any vehicle powered by something other than animal/human power, it usually turns out that it is costlier and more damaging than the promoters have claimed.  Even electric vehicles are no panacea.  The mining of lithium and other rare earths for the batteries, is far more destructive than Mr. Musk would like us to believe.  A good deal of the electricity for charging those lithium batteries comes from power plants using carbon based fuels.  

The solar panels and wind generators also use raw materials that are not always environmentally friendly.  That's not to say we shouldn't urgently explore alternative energy means of propulsion for vehicles, but we need to be honest with ourselves about the harm they can also cause.  The law of unintended consequences reigns over us all.

As for Toyota's new line of trucks they're way out of my budget, so it's just a curiosity for me.

In some places, like in France, entire fleets of electric vehicles are being scrapped because it's more expensive to replace the batteries than it is to buy new vehicles. I have high hopes for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles myself, but they rely on elements in the platinum series as catalysts, which are also rare.
Alan
2022 R-Pod 196 "RaptoRPod"
2022 Ram 1500 Lone Star 4x4
Three cats
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2021 at 11:14am
If you read articles promoted or funded by the fossil fuel industry they will tell you that EVs are not cleaner in locations with high carbon electricity generation. Studies promoted by clean transportation advocates show the opposite. Here for example:

EV Carbon Production

So like many other areas do your own research and decide who you trust. Clearly though, the benefit is higher in locations with greener electric grids.

The way I look at it, to wean off fossil fuels we need to both clean up the grid and clean up transportation emissions, among other actions, and do those things quickly and in parallel. By arguing that EVs aren't that much better if you are charging them from a dirty grid is basically making an excuse to do nothing until someone else does something first. Either you think it is important to address climate change or you don't. If you don't, buy an ICE. If you do, buy an EV, AND put in solar.

Re solar (photovoltaics), I know the cost curve on that very well, as I spent my career working at reducing it. What happens is that any new technology initially costs more than the incumbent technology, and that is used as an argument against adoption, until a tipping point is reached. Until the tipping point occurs the naysayers can readily argue that the new technology is not viable. Then, like magic, the new tech is suddenly everywhere.

The tipping point for PV has occurred sooner in some markets than others. In HI now you can't get an interconnect for grid tied solar in most places (unless you also add storage), the tipping point was reached 5 or more years ago. In comparison here in Appalachia solar is still only a fraction of a percent of the energy production. But that will change soon enough, assuming we don't allow the fossil fuel industry to throw up roadblocks

Re solar life cycle "greenness", the energy payback time for PV is now roughly about a year, with an expected useful life of 35 years or more, meaning that an investment in solar will produce something like 35x more energy that it took to produce it.

If the energy going into production, transportation, and installation is also derived from renewable sources then you can quickly get to near zero CO2 electricity generation. That is one thing the fossil fuel lobby doesn't want you to understand: they want you to assume the input energy into making PV modules or charging EVs is dirty, but as soon as you get a green energy technology to be net positive in energy production/conservation it makes sense to implement it, because it can then begin to displace the dirty input energy, resulting in a virtuous circle.

In the case of Toyota, they are the only major auto manufacturer not to embrace an electric future. GM, Ford, VW, Hyundai, Daimler, etc have all done so. Toyota seems to finally be changing, we'll see. The thing that will enable the transition to EVs to occurr faster than the transition to PV (which has taken a full generation till now) is that EVs are superior to ICE vehicles in almost every dimension. That isn't the case with solar, electrons are all the same. But EVs demonstrate better performance, better reliability, lower maintenance, more convenient home replenishment of energy, and are smoother and quieter. They will reach the tipping point on acquisition cost soon. The only dimension where they lag ICEs is range, and that too is rapidly changing. And for the large majority of consumers, (not including the long distance trailer towers on this forum), the current EV ranges are just fine.
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
lostagain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Location: Quaker Hill, CT
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2587
Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2021 at 4:03pm
Yep, we can't believe the petroleum industry's propaganda.  But we also have to be skeptical of everyone else's too.  

I sincerely hope that the "green" energy proponents are being more accurate in their claims, but we must keep in mind that each has its own financial interests to protect and that often occurs through not telling us the whole truth; lies by omission.  For example, how much environmental damage is done to Mother Earth [not just carbon emissions] in the mining of lithium?  Quite frankly, I don't know, but am concerned that Mr. Musk is not laying all the cards on the table.  Storage, as Glue Guy pointed out, is an issue for wind and solar generation.  Batteries banks of a hard to imagine magnitude may be required to make a functional power grid using solar and the environmental cost may be much higher than is sustainable.

Bottom line, as my very wise father once told me:  "There is no such thing as a free lunch."
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost
Back to Top
TheBum View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1407
Post Options Post Options   Quote TheBum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2021 at 4:21pm
"The only dimension where they lag ICEs is range"

And fueling time, at least with respect to battery powered EVs.
Alan
2022 R-Pod 196 "RaptoRPod"
2022 Ram 1500 Lone Star 4x4
Three cats
Back to Top
offgrid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5290
Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 7:21am
Recharge time is solved as far as I'm concerned. The new generation of 800V cars and DC chargers charge at 250+kw. So a Porsche Taycan for example can charge from 5 to 80 percent in under 25 minutes.

It is understandable when comparing a new technology to an old one to single out the areas where the new one is less competitive, but in reality it is not the right metric. Look at charging time for example, from the perspective of a typical EV owner. He or she charges at home over 90% of the time (yep, 90 plus, thats the statistic). If you asked him or her to trade that every day convenience to save 15-20 minutes on the occasional road trip what do you think the response would be?

Another example is smartphones. They are after all terrible phones. If you asked someone 20 years ago if he would want to have to hold a big rectangular brick up against his face to talk to someone he'd say forget it, I'll keep my nice little Nokia or Motorola Razor. But perspectives changed and the benefits of the new tech outweigh the negatives, and Nokia and Motorola disappeared

I understand the need for storage integrated with renewables very well. Rght now there are only a few electricity markets where renewable penetration is high enough that that is a constraint (HI, CA) so renewable deployment should focus on the other mmarkets, that gets low cost renewables deployed qas quickly and widely as possible .

There are multiple solutions for grid storage. Pumped hydro has the largest capacity today. If fact any heavy stuff can be moved up and down in elevation to do the same thing, doesn't have to be water. For example trainloads of concrete on a mountain railway grade will work fine. Also, grid storage via batteries don't have to be lithium based, Lithium gives you high energy density so it's great for vehicles but unnecessary in a stationary grid application where weight and volume are not very significant. Many of those alternative battery technologies use very common and benign materials. Lithium is just first to the table because of heavy investment for use in laptops and smartphones.

When you think about environmental damage from extraction operations consider the scales involved. There is a good reason why petroleum extraction, transportation, and refining has so much impact. Consider a typical ICE vehicle. It will require around 25 tons of gasoline over it's lifetime. An equivalent EV will have about a 600 lb battery. So while everything anyone does has an environmental impact the oil sector has the largest because of it's enormous scale. We have an example in Socal just this weekend.

You can't do anything without causing some kind of environmental impact. The fossil fuel lobby knows this well, and uses the environmental movement's desire to do no harm against it. But we have to look at what causes the least damage for the most benefit. That's one reason I favor aggressive deployment of nuclear power. Better to have to build and manage some long term radioactive waste storage facilities in remote deserts somewhere than all our coastal cities flooded.



1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
Back to Top
StephenH View Drop Down
podders Helping podders - pHp
podders Helping podders - pHp
Avatar

Joined: 29 Nov 2015
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6288
Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2021 at 8:18am
I think the comparison between gasoline use (25 tons) and a 600 lb battery is not accurate. The generation of energy and the resources for that must be included in the EV calculation. How many tons of coal/oil/natural gas/etc. are needed to charge that battery?  I don't argue with your point about impact of events like the pipeline leak in SoCal. That is bad.

I would also argue for increased nuclear use. However, instead of more reactors that create ever greater amounts of waste that will take millions of years to become safe, I would rather see reactors that consume more of the fuel and generate much smaller amounts of wastes that will need to be stored. That means that we need to get over the reluctance to build reactors that can burn these wastes.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/11/destroying-nuclear-waste-to-create-clean-energy-it-can-be-done

All that being said, I would not mind an EV for around home use. But for towing and the type of travel we do, an EV is just not feasible until the infrastructure for getting it charged as easily and as fast as filling up a fuel tank is available and affordable.
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.64
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz