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Elecgric Vehicles - F250 Lightning - Event Date: 16 Mar 2022

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Ciberpine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ciberpine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Calendar Event: Elecgric Vehicles - F250 Lightning
    Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 12:06pm
Starting a thread on Electric Vehicles.  I noticed in the post entitled "To buy or not to buy", that Offgrid mentioned that he is on the list to get purchase an F150 Lightning EV.  I also am on that list, although didn't make the 2022 cut and will have to wait until 2023 apparently.

The question that I am sure we all have is battery distance pulling a trailer, such as an R-Pod.  Even though Ford's marketing material has lots of pictures of the F150 Lightning towing a nice Airstream, there is no information on towing distance.  The truck looks like it will tow the R-pod with ease, but as we all know, it takes energy to tow. 

Has anybody able to find some information on this?  Has anybody actually taken delivery of an Electric Truck and towed with it?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 5:21pm
I missed this year's allocation too, it'll be 2023 for me as well. I think it's safe to assume the range towing an rpod will be around half or a little more of what it is with just the truck by itself. That's roughly equivalent to what happens to your gas mileage on an ICE truck as well. We should be seeing some real world numbers on this soon.

For me, since I've sold the rpod and no longer take long road trips, I expect I'll get the standard range version of the f150. All my towing nowadays is the horse or utility trailer and it's never more than maybe 30-50 miles.

The standard range truck looks to be a relative bargain in the base trim at about $39k and is supposed to still be capable of bi directional charging so it can run your house in emergencies.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote furpod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 7:30pm
There have been several reports on electric vehicle towing, by both "regular" owners, and people who test trucks.. So far, after reading through articles or watching videos, it seems you can expect 50 to 60% range loss, at a minimum. We had an Rpod owner in the FB group last year, tow from Houston to Miami. They were able to average just about 150 miles a day, forward motion. Finding charging spots, and more importantly, USING those charging spots was difficult. NONE are designed for a vehicle with a trailer in tow. Many times, they had to drop the trailer first.

Finding CG's along the route, and also in-line with their route of travel/chargers was difficult also. They had hoped to be able to charge at CG's some, but were either not allowed, or charged extra, and a 50A 120v charge didn't add much range overnight they said.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rpod-Couple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 8:02pm
The 120v chargers are typically type 1 and limited to 15A even when plugged into a 50A 120V socket. This limits you to 1.8 kWh per hour. So in 12 hours over night you are adding 21 kWh to a battery that has 98 kWh capacity - only 22% charge. The F150 only works if you stay in one place for 2-1/2 days. A type 2 240V 30A charger will get your F150 to 88% in a 12 hour over night stop but you would have to take the type 2 charger with you. 

If I limited my camping to a 120 mile radius or could find 50A 240V hookups every 120 miles the F150 Lightning might be ok. But you would be driving only 2 hours a day. Might as well tow my R-pod with a team of mules. LOL

No battery will ever beat the energy density of a gallon of gas at 39.5 kWh.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ciberpine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 10:03am
Agreed that the energy density of a gallon of gas or diesel cannot be duplicated with a battery.  However, there are many appealing things about an electric vehicle.  For now, the range is limited, but the electric truck will make an excellent work truck if driving 100 miles, or so, per day.  I own a tree care company, and the thought of being able to charge the fleet overnight for the 50-100 miles they will drive the next day is very appealing, along with the portable power station that the truck is. 

I think we will see an explosion of charging stations along the highways and by-ways over the next few years.  Like it or not, the Federal Government will subsidize it.  It's going to happen.  The technology is there for reliable electric vehicles.  The concept is not new, since some of the very early cars were electric.  Now we have the technology to make it practical.

I am hopeful that the towing range will improve with subsequent models of these trucks.  The portable power station should excite all of us boondockers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GlueGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 11:55am
Based on what I've read and listened to, I am inclined to agree with furpod. You will lose at least 50% of your range towing with an EV. Part of what makes EVs so efficient is meticulous attention to aerodynamic drag. Towing a trailer pokes a stick in the eye of aerodynamics. Until travel trailer makers figure out how to make trailers more aerodynamic, the range will be (in a word) sucky.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 5:08pm
There is nothing particularly aerodynamic about an f150, electric or ICE. The electric versions are going to get around a 230 mile range and the extended range version is going to get around 300. They will do that because they have big batteries. 98kwh and 131 kwh respectively.

The range difference towing can be expected to be about what we see with an F150 Ecoboost, say 26 mpg highway vs around 14 towing, or a bit better than 50%.

I have no idea why someone would be limited to 150 miles per day in an EV. A Porsche Taycan did the 2900 mile Cannonball run last year in 42 hours, including charging time. That vehicle, the f150 and many other EVs are now designed around 800V DC fast charging so recharge at 150-250kw or more. Around 30-40 minutes to add 60-70 percent range or more.

That 39kwh per gallon energy figure for gasoline is not pertinent. That is the chemical energy stored in the
fuel and does not in any way represent the energy available at the wheels. ICEs are horribly inefficient, if the energy available at the wheels is 10kwh/gallon you're doing well. So an f150 with a 131kwh battery is the equivalent of it having around a 13 gallon gas tank. At 26 mpg that's a bit over 300 miles range so the numbers line up. No drag benefit for the f150 Lightning.   

I guess the fossil fuel company pr folks have done a good job getting the average person to fixate on range when making comparisons between ICEs and EVs. In reality for most usage range is pretty irrelevant.

Let's for a moment focus on other points of comparison. 90 plus percent of ev owners replenish their vehicle's energy at home. Unless you have a gas pump at your house an ICE can't compete with that. Far more convenient.

And far cheaper. And not tied to the global spot price of crude oil. And with solar for charging you can home grow your energy and be free of dependence on whatever international incident Big Oil is using to justify their latest price gouging.

How about torque? No ICE can compete. Ditto for 0 to 60 and quarter mile times.

How about regen braking? EV drivers rarely need to use their friction brakes, saving cost recovering the energy.

Simplicity and cost of the drivetrain. Maintenance. Noise and vibration. The list goes on. And I didn't even mention air pollution till now.

Oh and can an ICE power your house?

So if you spend most of your time travelling long distances sure, get an ICE. But if youre the average user the EV has the ICE beat hands down.

So please don't critique the one area where EVs fall short unless you are also willing to be unbiased and acknowledge the multiple areas where the EV is far superior.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rpod-Couple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 6:57pm
The problem was stated at the beginning - charging stations aren’t designed for big vehicles towing trailers. Until that is solved and located every 100 miles, fast charging will still be a pain in the a$$ for us.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tars Tarkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by offgrid


I have no idea why someone would be limited to 150 miles per day in an EV. A Porsche Taycan did the 2900 mile Cannonball run last year in 42 hours, including charging time. That vehicle, the f150 and many other EVs are now designed around 800V DC fast charging so recharge at 150-250kw or more. Around 30-40 minutes to add 60-70 percent range or more.

I don't know what the Cannonball run is and I'm sure a Porsche Taycan, whatever that is, can go really fast  And I don't know what the vehicle's range is.  Assuming 5 stops for charging, which is probably low, and 30 minutes per charge, that's 2.5 hours out of 42, so it was moving for 39.5 hours. probably less.  2900 miles in 39.5 hours means it averaged over 73 mph. Possible, but not likely.  Was this on a closed track going around in flat circles?  It wasn't towing an RPod was it?

30-40 minutes for a "fill-up" wouldn't be be my cup of tea,  That 90% of people charge their EVs at home is totally irrelevant to this towing discussion.

I like the concept of EVs, but from what I've seen here, there's only a very limited application for using them as a tow vehicle for an RPod out in the real world.  The F150 Lighting wouldn't work for a single trip I've taken with my pod in the past 10 years.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 7:32pm
Since we only have one vehicle (my wife does not drive), and since I need to tow across the country as well as drive in and around town, the ICE engine still has the advantage for me. If the regulations would revert back to what they were before January 6th, my life would be easier. 

I think the current administration is deliberately making gasoline and diesel fuel prohibitively expensive with the goal of pushing people into remote-pollution vehicles AKA EVs that shift the pollution from the tailpipe to powerplants. If they were serious about alternate energy, then there would be many nuclear plants under construction as they are the best way to reduce CO2. Every technology has issues. Dams? I don't see any being built for hydroelectric power. Windmills? Ask Texas what happens when severe winter weather hits. Solar? Maybe for the desert southwest, but not for any area where clouds obscure or snow covers panels. Mirrors focused on a central tower? How many toasted birds are on the ground around California's installation. How many acres of farmland are now being covered with solar panels? How many more would be needed to ensure an adequate supply of energy to charge all these vehicles?

This does not even address an issue that my niece mentioned when we were visiting up in NY recently (just returned Wednesday). EVs don't like cold weather. The range of EVs is greatly reduced with cold weather. Lithium batteries can't be charged below 32F without some form of heating to make sure they are charged and not damaged. So part of the battery's energy has to go into heating elements. Then temperature has to be watched so that they don't get too hot (thermal runaway anyone?). That also takes energy to keep them cool.

One can say that only a small part of the energy contained in gasoline gets to the ground through the wheels. The same thing can be said for the energy being used at the generating plant. I looks as if proponents of EVs assume that 100% of the energy used by the generator reaches the charger, 100% of the energy that reaches the charger goes into the battery, and 100% of the energy contained in the battery goes to the ground through the wheels and not wasted. That is no more realistic than assuming 100% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel is used and not wasted.

I would be willing to drive a hybrid F150, but an EV is just not going to work for us any time soon. If anyone thinks one would fit his or her lifestyle and needs, then go for it.
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