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Nitrogen Dioxide

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jato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nitrogen Dioxide
    Posted: 12 Jan 2023 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by lostagain


It's easy to get angry about the idea that the government enters our personal lives, but that has always been the case, whether it was being forced to work for the lords of the manor as a peasant on his land, practice his religion, making personal medical decisions that are uniquely private, not raising pigs in your suburban home, or having to be quarantined as OG points out.  No one likes to be told what to do.  At the risk of continuing the political tone of this thread, I can personally say that I never met any of our founding fathers, though sometimes I feel that old.  I don't have a clue what they may have truly intended.  I have read much about the founding of our country, but I have to say that virtually everyone, including myself, says the founding fathers intended this or that based on our own biases and preferences.


Here is an excellent read to get a 'flavor' or our Founding Fathers intended.  This masterpiece was written by Benjamin F. Morris, who began to compile the contents written in this 1060 page treatise around 1853.  Mr. Morris undertook this labor of love because by that time there were already forces in America by the revisionists which were seeking to deny the Christian origins and foundation, and to destroy the dominantly Christian nature of our Constitution and laws.  First printing was during the 1860's.  Second printing August 2007.  The title "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2023 at 3:47pm
If you look into the personal beliefs of the founders, as stated by themselves, you will find that there were 3 categories. Christians, deists, and those who held  a mix of Christian and deist beliefs. The third group was apparently the largest. Deism was a  prominent intellectual movement in the Age of Enlightenment in 17th and 18th century Europe and North America. I won't get into the tenets of deism here but a quick Google search will bring up articles on that as well as which founders were were in which category.

StephenH, re the electric wok cookers I don't think youre wrong in observing that they aren't here in the US. The link I sent was for a Chinese one made to Chinese standards. It couldn't be installed here in any jurisdiction with building codes, because the NEC requires use of only listed appliances (with limited exceptions for industrial facilities with on site technical staff). Since natural gas is much less prevalent in China than it is here, and there are a lot more Chinese restaurants in China, they have a far larger domestic market for commercial electric wok cookers that we ever will. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2023 at 8:35pm
Jato, this is getting pretty religious and political.  I don't question for a moment your sincerity in the opinions you hold, but they are opinions based on your deeply held beliefs.  Whether they conform to an objective assessment of the "intent" of the those who wrote our constitution is a matter for debate.  The same is true for Mr. Morris.  He was born in 1810 and by the time he reached 18 years of age, the founding fathers were long gone.  It is a certainty that he never spoke to any of them about what they intended.  His writings are opinions gleaned from what he believed they wanted, but that may not necessarily be the case.  It would not be surprising to find that his deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs affected the formation of his his opinions.  My readings about the formation of our constitution and my study and practice of law since 1973 have led me to different opinions about what our founders intended, but my opinions are just that: opinions, not facts.  Certainly our founders had ideals and political theories, but most of what they did in the writing of our constitution and formation of our government were compromises in an effort to get those with diverse and conflicting views of how to govern to work together for a common goal; kind of like herding cats.

But back to the real topic, gas stoves:  Induction stoves, according to EnergyStar: "The per unit efficiency of induction Cooking Tops is about 5-10% more efficient than conventional electric resistance units and about 3 times more efficient than gas. If all Cooking Tops sold in 2021 in the U.S. used induction technology and met these draft criteria, the energy cost savings would exceed $125 million and the energy savings would exceed 1,000 GWh."  So induction stoves may eventually become a possibility for travel trailer.  In the meantime, we need to be careful ensuring adequate ventilation when using LP appliances.  With homes, as they become increasingly sealed from outside air, such precautions are also essential
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 3:27am
+1 to LA. 

These are all opinions. Strongly held, no doubt, but that just makes them more subject to confirmation bias.  

Everyone suffers from confirmation bias, we all prefer to look no further once we absorb information that confirms what we already believe. Life is much more efficient and easier that way. But very often this results in reaching the wrong conclusions. In the internet age where we have artificial intelligence spoon feeding us only information and media that we already agree with this has been taken to an extreme level, so we all must be on the lookout when we consume media or obtain information  that supports our preexisting assumptions. We must look further, and also take in and  evaluate information that contradicts our existing beliefs. 

In science this process is called falsification, and is a critical step in proving any hypothesis. Researchers have to not only perform  experiments that could confirm their hypothesis, but also ones that could disprove it. So, if it's not possible to prove a hypothesis wrong then it's not a scientific hypothesis  in the first place.   And if the researcher doesn't attempt to disprove his hypothesis  then it's bad science. 

Not to say scientists aren't subject to confirmation bias, of course they are, like everyone. But at least in the scientific community  the peer review process is there to try to ferret out when a researcher's confirmation bias has kept him from properly attempting to falsify his hypothesis.  Pretty much everywhere else in life there is not much to stop us all from living in our nice little self confirming bubbles. So the best defense is to be aware and to deliberatly seek out and honestly evaluate contradictory information. 

Take the misinformation about the Covid vaccines for example. At first glance, data showing that more vaccinated people are dying from Covid than unvaccinated people supports the pre-existing opinion of the antivaxxers. But it doesnt really. If everyone was vaccinated then by definition 100% of those dying would have been vaccinated. So since we're at a high percentage (around 80%) vaccinated, of course more vaccinated folks are dying than unvaccinated  We have to look further for data that supports or falsifies the hypothesis that the Civid vaccines have been ineffective. 

Back to the original topic. Re propane vs induction cooktops in RVs. Where I disagree with LA's statement that induction cooktops may one day become a possibility in RVs. They are very viable now. Many people use them already. You need a substantial battery bank, usually lithium, and an adequate electrical energy source, some combination of shore power, solar, alternator engine charging, and/or generator charging  If the gas cooktop breaks in my Chinook I'll very likely replace it with an induction cooktop, but in  the meantime I'll spend my limited RV upgrade dollars elsewhere. 




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Post Options Post Options   Quote David and Danette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 5:53am
 The main thing to be learned and the reason I posted this topic is to have proper ventilation when using a gas stove in a camper especially for those camping with children. This is something I never knew until I read the article about the dangers of gas stoves and their impact on our health. I have been looking for a small camper that can be towed behind our Kia Soul and thinking of having ventilation while cooking with gas the Nucamp Tag might be a good choice. The Nucamp Tag has the kitchen outside in the back of the camper like a hatchback SUV the back lifts up and that gives plenty of ventilation for the gas stove. I have allergies and have trouble breathing so the news of health concerns of fumes from natural gas stoves got my attention. There is a r-pod model 182G if it is still made and has the kitchen in back.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 6:23am
OG, I think you misinterpreted what I said.  I also forgot to put the quotation marks with the first part of the paragraph about the energy consumption of induction stoves.  I got distracted in the middle of the post and when geezers get distracted often they never get back on track.  As for the comment that induction stoves "may eventually become a possibility" for RV's, I did not mean to suggest that the technology doesn't exist, but that market acceptance and the economics of such a system may delay it's implementation.  I personally would like to drive electric cars, have a giant solar array on my house with a battery system, put lithium batteries in my trailer, and so on, but, in the words of Woodie Guthrie, "I don't got the dough re mi."  The raise in Social Security checks was nice, but I won't be buying a mansion with the little extra money I'm getting.  When the economies of scale and market demand are favorable, we'll see such a system take over.  Indeed, it's not only better for the environment, it's much safer not to have explosive gas in one's trailer.  Next, we've got to figure out a good heating system sans gas.

In the mean time, Dave and Danette are right, make sure you have adequate ventilation when you use gas appliances.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 7:38am
LA, if your point is that the market is not yet there for low cost RVs to come with induction cooktops then I agree with you to the extent that we add "for  boondock use without a generator" to that. The 2 burner cooktops themselves are only a couple hundred bucks on the 'zon so anyone who camps with hookups or carries a generator and can afford RVing at all could just buy and install one. You'd have to run an ac line to it, not a big deal. If I had a kid with asthma I'd do that tomorrow. 

But yes, to camp off grid without turning on your genny to cook you need some more stuff. For me, with my solar engineering background and willingness to buy cheap Chinese stuff, that will be inexpensive enough that it fits in my pretty meager RV budget. I expect to be putting about a net of $3k into the Chinook to do that, assuming I can get a couple $k for my Onan gen and roof a/c, both of which I now have off the camper. We'll see how it comes out.  I get that most folks would be apprehensive about my approach though.

Ditto for my home solar install. I bought 30kw of second hand solar modules for $11k. With structure, inverters, etc I'll wind up around double that as a total installed cost. On that I get s 30% tax credit.  Simple payback will take around  5 years or so. So I certainly hope to live long enough to be bread ahead, but if not my wife will be, and if not her my kids. It's an excellent investment, the system should produce well in excess of $100k of electricity over it's useful life. 

As for EVs, I'm buying the cheapest one on the market. The Chevy Bolt costs no more than a typical compact car these days, which in my book is a lot. But I have to replace my aging Prius soon anyway, it's 13 years old and approaching 200k miles. I'm hopeful that the Bolt will last me the rest of my life. 


If you can't do the engineering or the installation yourself, or if you don't have the cash to invest, you should still consider leasing a PV system, assuming you have a site that allows for it. You wont make a ton of money in the deal, someone else will be making the investment and reaping most of the financial rewards. But you would be hedging against future energy cost increases and doing your bit for the environment. Just sayin'.. 

Finally, the alternative to combustion furnaces exists now too, you could buy it tomorrow. It's a low temp heat pump, and has about a 2x coefficient of performance down to around 5 deg F or even lower. 

What does that mean in terms of energy cost to you? Retail natural gas is currently around $20 per million btu.  With a high efficiency gas furnace that works out to the equivalent of around 8 cents per kWh. So if you pay under 16 cents a kWh for electricity, with a COP of 2 youre ahead with the modern heat pump. If you currently heat with propane or oil you're waaay ahead.  So unless you're living in a really cold place which is frequently below around 0 or so 5, I'd suggest installing a new heat pump when your gas furnace goes out.  

Id put one in tomorrow except that I heat with wood. Costs me nothing except a ton of labor felling, bucking, splitting, stacking, and managing the woodstove  (and some chains for the chainsaw). So I'm going to put off the new heat pump investment till I get too old to run away fast enough to keep the tree from falling on me. Hopefully I'll know that in advance....

If you're looking for a gas furnace alternative that costs you nothing then that doesn't exist  and it never will.  But you do  get a tax credit starting this year on a new heat pump. 





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Post Options Post Options   Quote David and Danette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 8:20am
   I have a question do solar panels wear out? Do they have a certain life span where they lose their ability to produce electricity?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 8:36am
We have a heat pump in our house and will use it to heat my wife's sewing studio in the lower half of the house where the hot water heat was not installed.  We'll see how costly it is to operate this winter.  In fact, today is the first day we'll be using it.  I looked into leasing a solar system.  It isn't cost effective for our situation, though it may be for others.  The lease was for 25 years, with decreasing efficiency over the years, and the fact that the contract had to be paid off on the sale of our house as it was not transferrable, all make it a bad deal.  I'd be over 100 years old before the lease ended.  

One of my co-volunteers on the Habitat houses we're building just got his solar system license.  As time goes on, I may find a way to come up with a system that we can afford with Ed's help in the design and installation.  Another problem we're running into with an on grid solar system is that the local utility company is making it less and less economical to operate it.  The want to reap the benefits, not give them to their subscribers.

It's not necessarily the cost of the 2 burner induction heat stove that is the problem for our trailer, it's the cost of a completely new battery system.  We usually camp in the boondocks, so connecting to an electric power source is out of the question and I don't see any point in running a generator on LP to avoid using LP in the trailer, when I can solve the combustion products issue by opening a window.  Our trailer and my trailer camping days are limited, so the cost of a lithium battery system just doesn't make sense.  We'll just muddle through for the next few years before we get rid of the trailer.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2023 at 9:24am
Industry standard residential and commercial  glass solar module power warranties are 80% or the original rated power after 25 years. Not too many things you buy have 25 year warranties. Thus excludes the so called flexible RV modules, which usually have a 5 year warranty. Basically  you should stay away from those.  

There's really nothing to wear out in a PV module, the end of life usually comes because the encapsulation system (the plastic lamination) fails and the solar cells corrode. I just removed the original 43 watt glass solar module from my 27 year old RV, tested it  and it works just fine. There is starting to be some noticeable cell corrosion though. 

LA, you won't be happy with your conventional heat pump's performance in cold weather. Unless its been manufacturerd in the last year or so and is a high performance mini split or similar and labelled "hyper heat" or something like that it's going to quit working efficiently somewhere around 32 degrees F. Below that the thermostat on  most existing heat pump systems flips over to resistance heat strips which of course have a COP of 1. That makes them about twice as expensive as natural gas, and about the same as propane or oil heat at current prices. IOW, only a new inverter based high efficiency heat pump is going to give the kind of peformance needed to compete with natural gas heat.

Looks like Connecticut ended it's net metering program as of Jan 1 this year. Net metering goes by state and requires your utility to buy all your solar power at retail, up to when that equals your total annual consumption. Net metering us a great deal  because basically the utility acts as a free battery for you, so anyone considering doing solar in a net metering state like Virgina where I live should do it now and not wait. The utilities hate net metering for obvious reasons so lobby against it. Looks like they were successful in Conecticut. There is a new program now there but I don't know anything about it's economics  
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