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Sway bars, wdh, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

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Forum Name: Podmods, Maintenance, Tips and Tricks
Forum Discription: Ask maintenance questions, share your podmods (modifications) and helpful tips
URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=13215
Printed Date: 28 Apr 2024 at 7:20am
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Topic: Sway bars, wdh, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Posted By: Happy Tripping
Subject: Sway bars, wdh, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 9:24am
I have a light r-pod, a 171, and a 4500# towing capacity t v. and have never felt the need for more than the very occasional use of a sway control bar in high winds. I have been struck by the many podders here who love wdhs and wouldn't go out without one.

Another post recently had this most interesting discussion of weight distribution hitches - 

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCgRiVNaXFc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCgRiVNaXFc

The  mystery of the 10-15% requirement for optimal weight on the towing ball appears to be explained in this video but it also brings up some apparent drawbacks of a wdh, especially when you are in the middle of nowhere on a bad road, that I have never seen discussed here.

The 'bottom line' seems to be that if you can keep your vehicle LEVEL, you don't need a wdh, and the ONLY time you cannot do that is with a big heavy trailer that exceeds the capacity of the t v's suspension to remain level, and no r-pod - used with a 'sensible' t v, will ever do that.

Heh, heh, ... comments?
                                                 Evil Smile




Replies:
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 5:17pm
Agree, over the years I have towed our 2011 with the following vehicles with only a Curt anti-sway bar:
'94 F-150 322,000 miles 5.0L. V-8  31 deer kills 100+ deer hits (affectionally known as) the deer slayer,
'08 Explorer 4.0L V-6, '13 Explorer 3.5L V-6 and just this year we upgraded to an '11 F-150 5.0L V-8 Coyote engine, mainly to have more storage and pulling power in the Rockies.  We are now at 34,000 miles with our 177 and cannot complain about things falling apart or of towing issues.  This flies in the face of many who will not tow with a full tank of water especially if that FW tank is located behind the axle, which in the case of the 177, it is. 

I can't remember which of you engineering experts pointed this out but it is definitely a good fact to go by: 10-15% of the weight towing should be on the hitch, which in our case, it is.  Even with a full tank of water we also have 2 propane tanks and 2 12v. batteries on our a-frame to balance things out.


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God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 7:05pm
Yeah I've been bawled out, belittled, berated, chided, castigated, chastised, chewed out, keelhauled, lectured, reprimanded, scolded, scorned, voted non-sentient, and been subjected to out right prognostication that I will die a fiery, painful death,  carnage will reign on the highway for miles around me, and all my children will be born nekkid since I dont use a WDH hitch.

But so far, it seems to work fine for me without one. 




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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 7:39pm
I would never put down anyone for not using a WDH. I do encourage people to use some form of sway control though. It is one of those things that you don't need until you do. Then if you don't have it, things can get mighty bad in a hurry. It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

BTW, even if you use a WDH hitch, all your children will be born nekkid. Ermm


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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 8:04pm
Well, it's not mechanical, but the pickup has electronic anti-sway control....

I did hit 90 mph one time pulling the r-pod....of course I did not inject any dumb or quick steering wheel movements during that half a minute or so, and it felt steady. 

It always feels stable at the speeds I normally travel, about 60-65 most of the time.  


(insert opinions below)


Tongue


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 8:51pm
I, for the record, have never put anyone down for not using a WDH. I have advised folks with marginally capable tow vehicles that a WDH would be in their best interest however. I don't really consider an F-150 (or tow vehicles in that weight/power class) to be a marginal tow vehicle though.

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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 10:17pm
"and all my children will be born nekkid since I dont use a WDH hitch." quote podwerkz

Had to laugh at that one.  Thinking back to my first born.  He enjoyed the free lodging and was born a few days later than his due date.  When he finally was "booted out" the Dr. told me to give that young boy a haircut, trim the nails, and get him a Big Mac!  But I was there at that momentous occasion, and sure enough, he was born nekkid!  Hmm, maybe because when he was born in 1978 I wasn't using that WDH thingee.


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God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: tcj
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Happy Tripping

The 'bottom line' seems to be that if you can keep your vehicle LEVEL, you don't need a wdh, and the ONLY time you cannot do that is with a big heavy trailer that exceeds the capacity of the t v's suspension to remain level, and no r-pod - used with a 'sensible' t v, will ever do that.

Heh, heh, ... comments?
                                                 Evil Smile

Compared to the lighter Rpods, our 180 is a big heavy trailer. We boon dock on 90% of our camping trips so travel with a full fresh water tank.

The trailer tongue weight is about 450 to 500 pounds and although our 2014 Toyota Tacoma with factory towing package has a 6500 pound trailer weight rating, it does not remain level when hitched up.

We are not rich...not poor either...but can't afford a big truck.  So...as instructed in the Toyota's owner manual...I installed a WDH to keep it level.

The one valuable piece of information for me in the video is to undo the spring arms when driving through a dip.  That happens often in areas we camp as we need to drive through the ditch to get off the road to a camp spot.


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2018 R-pod 180 Hood River Edition


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 3:11pm
Whether you use a WHD is a matter of personal choice.  Some like them, some don't.  Some have TV's that are big enough that they are not needed, while others would probably be better off using one.

We've been using a WHD since we got our Pod and have been very satisfied with the performance, especially with our smaller pickup.  The ride is smooth and stable, even in heavy cross winds and curvy roads.  We keep our speed down to 60 or less, mostly for reasons of mileage, but it also reduces the risk of something bad happening if we have to take evasive action.  When we are on rough roads, or roads with deep dips, we go at an appropriate speed so that the TV chassis is not heavily stressed by the torsion of the WHD.  And, if we are on an especially bad road, we'll just take the bars off and go slowly consistent with the conditions.  In effect, some like their bacon cooked well done while others like a little less crispy.

As for the video posted by Happy.  Though the individual in it had some valid engineering points about weight distribution, load transfer, torsion, etc.  His lack of basic good manners was pathetic, especially when he got off on trying to justify words that are universally accepted in the English language as offensive. When that started, it was time tune out.


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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: crankster78
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 3:23pm
Greetings:  
I like my WDH, went many years with out one.  It's whatever your comfortable with.  I do think it's worth the money.  

Crankster78  R-179


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Crankster 78 R-179 2015


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by tcj

 

We are not rich...not poor either...but can't afford a big truck.  So...as instructed in the Toyota's owner manual...I installed a WDH to keep it level.

The one valuable piece of information for me in the video is to undo the spring arms when driving through a dip.  That happens often in areas we camp as we need to drive through the ditch to get off the road to a camp spot.

I'm very curious as to which Toyota you have and that manual statement. I have a 2017 Tacoma and mine does not state using anything to go beyond the factory installed items. Mine eludes to warranty cancelation if any 'after-market' suspension assists are installed. I'm very curious on what yours says and which one you own!

I do understand what your saying about added torque applied as driving through a ditch/water drain/hollow. I tend to think that our trailers (unless a lift is installed) doesn't adds all that much before we bottom out (by design?). Now, with a lift installed, I can see where this can be a issue. Something those with a lift should be aware of and of course how much of.

I'm debating going to Sumo Springs vs. the WDH (known to me now as LDH). Even those installed risk my warranty. 



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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander


Posted By: tcj
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Olddawgsrule

Originally posted by tcj

 
We are not rich...not poor either...but can't afford a big truck.  So...as instructed in the Toyota's owner manual...I installed a WDH to keep it level.
I'm very curious as to which Toyota you have and that manual statement. I have a 2017 Tacoma and mine does not state using anything to go beyond the factory installed items. Mine eludes to warranty cancelation if any 'after-market' suspension assists are installed. I'm very curious on what yours says and which one you own!


Olddawgsrule, Our Toyota is a Tacoma access cab, 4 wheel drive, 6 speed manual transmission.  It has the factory installed towing package for trailers up to 6500 gross weight.

In the trailer towing section under "Tongue weight" it says:

"The gross trailer weight should be distributed so that the tongue weight is 9% to 11%.  If using a weight distributing hitch when towing, return the front axle to the same weight as before the trailer connection...if the axle weight cannot be measured directly, adjust the WDH until the height of the front fender is the same height as before connection".

Under trailer towing cautions it says:
"If the gross trailer weight is over 2000 pounds, a sway control device with sufficient capacity is required.  If the gross trailer weight is over 5000 pounds, a weight distributing hitch with sufficient capacity is required."

So...I installed WDH with sway control.


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2018 R-pod 180 Hood River Edition


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2019 at 4:49am
Well, the second half of that video was pretty much all politics and religion and even the first part was only about 10% actual physics and engineering, so I had a hard time getting through it.  Skipping all the other inappropriate stuff, the physics part started out OK but left a lot of the explanation out, so it's incorrect, or more accurately, it's incomplete. So let me try to keep going.

First the term to use for the rotational forces a wdh applies is "moment". Here is the definition of "moment":

"Moments are usually defined with respect to a fixed reference point; they deal with physical quantities as measured at some distance from that reference point. For example, the moment of force acting on an object, often called  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque - torque , is the product of the force and the distance to the object from the reference point."

So its not enough to just say that the torque being applied to the TV via the wdh could be applied anywhere on the TV.  You have to pick a point you're applying the moment around. In the case of the wdh that is the ball, the rig pivots around that.  

Second, just like the ground is creating an opposing force countering the weight of the rig so it doesn't fall to the center of the earth, there also has to be an opposing moment keeping the TV from continuing to rotate into the ground counterclockwise (as seen from the left side) when the wdh is tensioned. In effect that acts to increase the down force on the TV front axle and reduce the down force on the rear axle. 

Now on the the trailer. Since the spring  bars are being tensioned between the hitch attached to the TV and the trailer A frame, there is a clockwise moment being applied to the trailer and that is equal and opposite to the counterclockwise moment on the TV. That moment, also applied at the ball, is stopped by the ground pushing up on the trailer wheels, effectively increasing the load on the trailer axle, 

So, the wdh does redistribute down forces from the TV rear axle to the front axle and the trailer axle. The proportion getting redistributed where depends on the distances from the ball to each of the three axles. The total getting redistributed depends on the tension on the wdh bars.

So while the video dude is correct that the weight on the ball doesn't change, the down force on the rear axle does indeed go down with a wdh. With stiff enough wdh bars and frames that can take the load, you can take all the weight off the TV rear axle and suspend it in the air. There is an old wdh ad photo somewhere of an Olds Toronado with its rear wheels removed towing a trailer, the back of the Olds is just hanging there.

What's important here is the point of the wdh is NOT to just level the TV. It is NOT doing the same thing at all as adding helper springs to the TV rear axle. Adding helper springs does not increase the load on the front axle or reduce it on the rear axle. Driving around with too little weight on the TV front axle is dangerous. 

Whether you need a wdh with your particular rig or not will depend on the specs on your TV and how your trailer is loaded, If the TV is sufficiently heavy and/or has a long enough wheelbase (remember that the moment is the product of force x distance so a long wheelbase means that the load on the front of the TV won't be reduced as much to counter the tongue weight) then the wdh will be unnecessary.

If you do benefit from one that does not mean your TV is marginal, it just means that the wdh is part of the design requirements for that vehicle to carry that load. The point is to be sure to understand the specs and be comfortable with the way you have loaded and set up your rig. 

And no, you're not going to  break your TV  going through a swale by using a wdh within the vehicle manufacturer's specs and limitations.   

I'll include the link to this calculator again which I found very helpful in understanding what's going on and setting up my rig the way I wanted it. 

https://www.ajdesigner.com/apptrailertow/weightdistributionhitch.php - https://www.ajdesigner.com/apptrailertow/weightdistributionhitch.php






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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: Happy Tripping
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 7:03am
Originally posted by tcj

The trailer tongue weight is about 450 to 500 pounds ...

Thanks for your comment. Wow, I had no idea that r-pods had gotten so heavy. 

My comments apply to the original 'light weight' r-pod. A 5000 pound r-pod may indeed require a wdh.


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 1:49pm
The 'Pods themselves are not so heavy. It is all the stuff we cram into them to take with us that really packs on (in) the pounds.Our 'Pods, much like many of us, could stand to go on a diet.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 3:11pm
I'd be willing to bet that its very common for the trailer specs on tongue weight, that is stated with no battery and either an empty propane tank or none at all, thats why they can state a 265#(or whatever) tongue weight.

Balderdash.

When you mount two batteries and a full propane tank, or two of them, plus a bunch of stuff loaded into the trailer ahead of the axle, which is most of the water, food, supplies, etc, the tongue weight goes up past 400...maybe around 500-600 for some of the bigger pods.

This is just one reason why in the past I have posted warnings about towing r-pods with minivans and small SUVs...


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 3:51pm
Sounds like a good reason to use a WHD for those mini-vans and small SUV's.  Also, a little load balancing may be a good idea.  And, bottom line, as StephenH suggests, it might be a good idea to go on a Pod diet when you pack.

-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: Olddawgsrule
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2019 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by podwerkz

I'd be willing to bet that its very common for the trailer specs on tongue weight, that is stated with no battery and either an empty propane tank or none at all, thats why they can state a 265#(or whatever) tongue weight.

Balderdash.

When you mount two batteries and a full propane tank, or two of them, plus a bunch of stuff loaded into the trailer ahead of the axle, which is most of the water, food, supplies, etc, the tongue weight goes up past 400...maybe around 500-600 for some of the bigger pods.

This is just one reason why in the past I have posted warnings about towing r-pods with minivans and small SUVs...

It's even heavier than you state... I just went through it. No batt's, no propane, no anything.. Tongue weight read 375#'s (about). 182G dry (even drier than normal).. It is very important how we load!
  


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJduGeZNFgtptH67leItRFQ - Byways no Highways
2017 Tacoma
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=72408 - Truck Camper Build
2004 F150 My Overlander



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