For me, lately, this stands for State Of Confusion.

Here's the deal this time. A few sunny crazy hot days seem like a great opportunity to stress test refrigerator and solar system. Besides, I'm really trying to understand this stuff.

First: The refrigerator is doing great! Both shore power electric and propane have maintained freezer temps below 10 and fridge has not risen above 39. And that's with measuring inside and outside pod temps above 90, albeit in the shade. Freezer is about 1/3 packed with freezer packs and 1 gallon water in fridge. I am pleased. I recently replaced OEM fan with quieter fan, added small thermostat controlled exhaust fans in upper vent and had previously replaced OEM fan thermostat with a slightly lower temperature switch. All seems to be working well.

Second: I'm having a hard time understanding electron flows!  

So, for the last few days (while waiting for another panel) I've been carefully monitoring solar panel output and battery voltage (see Renogy thread). I started with what I believe were fully charged 220Ah GC's only a year old. They have been continuously charged via Pod converter - one year old Progressive Dynamics PD4655V. PD had been maintaining batteries between "Normal" charge of 13.6v and "Storage" charge of 13.2v. When I began the solar tests, battery voltage reported 12.7v after 24 hour rest (turned off converter). I have carefully maintained battery fluid level.

Over the last few days the panels have flowed about 30Ah per day to the batteries. The panels are in full sun for about 1/2 day and report 14.7v absorption charge when cranking. That's reported by the PWM controller and confirmed by a meter between controller and batteries. Every morning, before the panels start charging, battery voltage reports 12.9v. Only thing running in Pod is fridge. I do have inverter, but it is switched. The pod did sit for a week or so not long ago without any charger and the batteries never went below 12.5v

MY SOC (State of Confusion) is: Where are all those amps going? Do the batteries just ignore them? Nothing feels particularly hot and no boiling. Why isn't the PWM dropping back to float charge? Seems like it it should with fully charged batteries.

I thought I understood that the PWM controller was monitoring battery condition and would pump in amps as the batteries needed them - like the PD4655V seems to act. I thought I could estimate how many Ah the batteries would take based on my consumption. I seem to have thought wrong. Do I really have to spend more money on that Trimetric Battery Monitor....Arghhhh.

What am I missing?

fred

I added a battery monitor (see my mods topic linked in signature) to monitor the state of charge. It is like a gas gauge for my LiFePO4 battery. It can be programmed for PB-Acid batteries, flooded, AGM, or Gel as well. It cost a lot less than some of them and appears to work quite well. You may wish to install one for your batteries so you will have a better grasp of the actual state of charge and lessen the state of confusion.

This is the link that shows a picture of the monitor: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712&PID=128854&title=our-escapod-mods#128854 - http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712&PID=128854&title=our-escapod-mods#128854

This is the link for the monitor:  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FGFFHC6/ - https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FGFFHC6/

Now I do remember seeing that unit somewhere. Probably would be a worthwhile investment. Still, I just can't figure out where my amps are going...

fred

But...the mystery here is that if there is that much of a phantom draw ~30Ah/day, why would my batteries hold a charge (showing > 12.4v) with no charge over a week? Remember, I said the Pod sat for a week with no charge before I started these tests. It then sat for another week with converter on. And...just overnight with now charge, I would think the bank would draw down to less than the 12.9v it's been showing.

Unless I killed the batteries the last few days, I don't understand the PWM readings I'm seeing.

If you're getting up to 14.7V and 30AH is really getting pushed into the batteries then the charge limit on your controller is too high, at least for the current hot weather. You might look into temp compensation for the controller, or see if you can adjust the setpoints. Put another way, the AH are going into battery gassing, using energy to create hydrogen and oxygen from the water in the battery. 

I assume there is no damage as long as batteries don't start boiling? I'm going to unplug solar this PM and go back to on board converter/charger. Thanks!!

This from a few minutes ago. 21.2Ah on controller. Meter shows 23.024Ah. For the day so far.

No, but good thinking.

Ghost in 'my' rPod was 3.264amps daily (over a 15 day trip). Ghost is not doing what is happening.

In my new unit, 12a with Frig running is typical. You need to isolate that draw. Shut off everything and take a reading. Possible short somewhere.

 

Will be interesting to test side-by-side with new PWM controller and temperature probe I have coming.

Once again, OG and I have a different approach.. nothing new. That draw should not be taken lightly, no matter what I or anyone else states as 'okay'. Do your diligence and find the draw 

The stock rPod converter/charger has it's issues, yet haven't heard of this one till now. The battery will only take what it can, resistance comes into play. I'm of a belief that amperage is consumed, not distributed aimlessly. Current can not travel without an appliance to receive. 

I'd set all else down and start with just the batteries. Shall we see where the short is? 

Meanwhile, I just opened up the batteries and, sure enough, they are bubbling. Not boiling, but bubbling. Measured with IR they are currently @ 92.5 degrees.

Read this:  https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery/subscribe_thx - https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery/subscribe_thx

You will never get actual boiling of electrolyte in a battery, what you see is always just gassing. A little is good because it keeps the electrolyte mixing, too much is too much. 

I've disconnected solar and converter/charger is disconnected. I'll monitor voltage and in a day or two I should have hydrometer and new controller. We'll go from there.

You guys are great! It will fun trying to figure this out! 

I have a friend who refuses to try solar. He says it's tooo much voodoo. He's not totally wrong. We still need more standards and understandings. That said, I'm gonna figure this out, ....

Not at all. Solar is the simplest energy source you can have, Aim it at the sun and it makes electricity. That's it. Lasts forever. No fuel or maintenance. 

Try that with anything else. I'm rebuilding an old Black and Decker wood chipper right now. Magneto coil, ground connections, spark plug gap, carb with a choke, throttile and an air vane governor. Tiny little carby and it has about 8-10 mechanical connections coming off it with springs and levers and cams. Can't remember where they all go and can't find an assembly diagram. And that's without even going into the engine itself. Talk about voodoo.

https://www.amazon.com/Articulated-Finger-accessibility-electrical-standards/dp/B0716YYXN2 - https://www.amazon.com/Articulated-Finger-accessibility-electrical-standards/dp/B0716YYXN2

The issue you're having right now is a battery issue not a solar issue. Lead acid batteries do contain a bit of voodoo for sure. I don't think there is anything actually wrong with your system other than you should see if you can reset the charge voltage cutoff lower, 14.7 is too high. I have the same problem with my WFCO converter, it overcharges my batteries as well. 

BTW, 12 hours since I disconnected solar. No loads in pod save CO detector.

Voltmeter shows 12.68v

If you wanted to do something interesting you could make a diversion charge controller which instead of shutting off the solar output diverted it to run the fridge once your batteries reach full charge. Off grid homesteaders often do that sort of thing with excess solar or wind energy. 

New charge controller will be here Friday. As well as temperature probe. Should be interesting. I can find no way to reset or change controller parameters.

To make a diversion controller you'd need a charge controller with a dry contact output that closed when battery SOC reached its setpoint. Morningstar makes one as do others. Then you'd need to get into the fridge source selection switch and jigger it so the contact output from the controller switched it to 12V electric and it reverted back to propane the rest of time. That would void your warranty from Dometic if you still have one. It would be fun but the fridge uses so little propane that its not really worth the effort. 

The other thing you could do is add an inverter and connect that to the 120Vac water heater element. Use the charge controller in diversion mode to turn on the inverter. That would probably be pretty easy. 

I have submitted another ticket to Renogy but it's been a week since i submitted my last ticket, so I'm not betting on a response.

The controller I have coming is the "New Edition" of the controller I have. I ordered it 10 days ago and tried, unsuccessfully, to cancel order cuz I was mad at them. I'm kinda glad I'm getting it now just to do a side-by-side comparison. The original reason I went with the Voyager PWM was because it's waterproof. I have a crazy idea of mounting a 100W panel on my 4Runner roof w/controller at battery box on Pod. Figured it would be a fun project and would pump a few amps into Pod while towing. When not towing or camping, I'll use the setup to maintain battery for our electric fence around our bee hives.

As far as the diverter goes, I got two ideas:

1) Campgrounds should setup a plug where we could feed the grid with our leftovers.

2) Use it to operate ice maker and blender! Should have plenty leftover amps @ end of day, just in time for Happy Hour blender sports!!

If you put the controiler on the TV and connected it into the TV 12V system and left your 7 way connected while camping you wouldn't need to add an additional connector to the trailer and it would maintain charge on both the TV and trailer batts.

Electric fence just makes us feel better. It's supposed to be for black bear which we do have around. I honestly think the black bear I have seen would get a good chuckle out of it.

My wife is the beekeeper. I'm just the help. From second harvest a few days ago. 270 lbs. from four hives. A good year.

Sweet! 

I like the idea but would not like to have to risk the stings. There are some beekeepers that live near me. I see honeybees in my yard on the clover blossoms and on the other flowering bushes and plants all the time. I leave them alone and they leave me alone.

I don't think an electric fence would slow a bear for more than a millisecond....

Very cool photos. Thanks!

I thought I should post the cluster^%@! of wiring I have. I do plan on cleaning up, but I don't think there is anything technically wrong with it. Right?

1) Factory house feed

2) 1500 Watt Windy Nation pure sine wave inverter

3) and 4) Auxiliary input/output. 10AWG w/30 amp inline fuse. SAE connectors

I just got notice that new controller is on UPS truck headed this way. Should be interesting.

Two dedicated outlets w/inverter on/off switch - below galley outlet.

Since you already have a 1500 watt inverter you could probably make a diverter to the water heater element pretty easily. I believe the element is rated at 1400 watts. Does the inverter have a remote on/off? 

Remote on/off is just below galley outlet.

Thanks!

Since you have a remote on/off, all you need is a controller with a contact that closes at full battery charge. Like the Morningstar TriStar. You'd also need to rewire the water heater element to run off the inverter with a double throw switch so you can put it back on grid power when that's available or you want to use the inverter for something else. 

https://thesolarstore.com/morningstar-tristar-ts-45-pwm-solar-charge-controller-45-amp-12v24v48v-no-digital-display-p-453.html?osCsid=hhhf92l98eo29vc6qj2jrm0ho6 - https://thesolarstore.com/morningstar-tristar-ts-45-pwm-solar-charge-controller-45-amp-12v24v48v-no-digital-display-p-453.html?osCsid=hhhf92l98eo29vc6qj2jrm0ho6

I got out my 100w Renogy kit today to test a bit. I think I found out something that may or may not apply to your case.

First, I had made an extension. The controller was reading 6.1A in bright sunlight, which was pretty good. However, my battery did not seem to be charging. After trying a couple of things, I popped open the cover of the fuse holder and found to my chagrin that there was no fuse in it. Add one 10A fuse, and all is well.

The symptom was that there was no LED showing above the battery icon. Once I put the fuse in, it appeared and the battery is charging. I don't know if it will help with your situation, but this is one angle to double-check. Make sure all connections are going to the right places. I see the positive lead to your positive terminal, but I can't visually unravel the spaghetti to see all the other connections.

Since you have a new controller on the way, I am looking forward to seeing if it will fix your problem or if the problem turns out to be something else.

I have triple checked all connections and used multimeter. 4 positive, 4 negative, check. All fused (albeit not optimally).

Good to know about fuse. I'm confident the controller has been charging. It's been four days since I started testing and the solar charger has been disconnected since yesterday evening. Battery bank is @ 12.7v right now.

Yep, it will be interesting to test with new controller!

Right now, though, the smoker is ready to go and the coho salmon is brined and prepped. Priorities!!

exit, which is kinda ridiculous. 

No doubt, the controller is just registering amphours going into producing H2, Its just wasted energy with nowhere to go. All off grid solar systems waste energy once the batts are fully charged, either by gassing or by curtailing solar output. 

Battery connection sans solar. 22 hours battery rest with no charge/load

Right after hooking up panels

After about 20 minutes. Seems to have leveled out @ 14v and 10A. Definitely a different result than other controller was showing. I think I need to get a response from Renogy on other controller.

The setpoints on the new version are supposed to be the same on the flooded battery setting.  I'd expect this one to try to get the batts up to 14.6-14.8 as well. Getting late in the day, see what happens tomorrow. It doesn't tell you what charge mode it's in does it? 

It has climbed 10 14.6. Yeah, need more time to really test well and no, it doesn't display charge mode.

Mine has a little note on the display that indicates that it is set for LiFePO4. Other notes in the manual are that flooded batteries are only supposed to equalize if taken below 11.5V or every 28 days. Equalization is for a 2 hour period maximum. Battery type is set via the instructions on page 9 of the manual. While it does not display charge mode in text form, the LEDs do indicate which mode it is in (page 10), the controller has 5 modes as stated on page 4 of the manual:

Soft Charge: over discharged batteries starts at 3 and ramps up to 10V.

Bulk charge: Maximum charging until absorption level reached.

Absorption charge: Constant voltage charging when battery is over 85%.

Equalization: As stated abovve.

Float charge: for all but Lithium battery types.

I had mine charge the LiFePO4 battery today. It worked well and indicated via the LED display that my battery was full (FUL). If the controller is not showing FUL on the display, then it is still charging the battery. At full, it should have gone into float mode for flooded batteries.

Thats what started this whole discussion. Controller never showed FUL even though I feel certain the battery bank was fully charged. I like the idea offgrid has of lowering the voltage limit by selecting GEL. Perhaps there is something with these dual 6v batteries that the controller just does not sense FUL voltage. I know that my PD4655 converter goes into float very quickly. They brag quite a bit about the fact they use finesse instead of brute force. It has served me very well and it's quiet.

https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/power-converters/inteli-power-4600-series/ - https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/power-converters/inteli-power-4600-series/

P.S. One neat feature of the new controller is that it reports array voltage.

StephenH, which controller do you have? 

20A PWM Voyager. The manual is version 1, Revision 5/1/17

The chart on page 5 is where the 2 hours maximum is stated for Equalization.

I found that manual. I think, although the one I found shows rev 1.1 As you say, it reads 2 hrs equalize at 15.5V whenever the batts go below 11.5V and gives an LED indication of which charge stage its in. 

This is the one I was looking at yesterday, which is linked to the "New Edition" Voyager product on their website. It doesn't discuss LED indicators, has an equalization voltage of 14.8, done monthly, and warns that can be indefinite if there is a load left on the batts and/or the charging current is too low. The non-Li version reads like this one as well. 

https://www.renogy.com/content/RCC20VOYP-G1/VOYP1020-Manual.pdf - https://www.renogy.com/content/RCC20VOYP-G1/VOYP1020-Manual.pdf

Looks like equalize has been changed somewhere along the way. I like the 2 hours at 15.5 better. but I wonder what happens if there is inadequate charging to maintain the 15.5 for 2 hours in that version.  

I think Renogy could maybe do a better job keeping their firmware and manual revs clear....

FYI

Manual for older style controller:

Manual for new edition controller:

https://grafiks101.com/pod/renogy/VOYP1020-Manual.pdf - https://grafiks101.com/pod/renogy/VOYP1020-Manual.pdf

More testing today

Just checked. Array voltage reports 18+v.  Charging voltage reports 14.5v. Controller amperage reports 2.2 amps.

If I got this right, seems to me the power curve is working. It's tapering off. I will be surprised if the controller doesn't show FUL this afternoon.

Just since I reported above (about 20 minutes ago)

For the last couple hours under partly cloudy skies the controller was reporting as above (13.7v @  0.1-0.5 amps) . That's float. I think it's working exactly they way we all would expect it to.

I have to conclude that there is an issue with the first edition controller. I have opened another ticket with Renogy, but the controller is well past its 30 day warranty. It was probably doing the same in the beginning, but I just didn't know any better than to notice or care. I also used it so little that no damage was done to batteries.

Thanks to everyone who contributed. Hopefully, we all learned a bit.

BTW, I did get my hydrometer today and all six cells of batteries specific gravity measured +1.275

My sense is that there is nothing actually wrong with either controller. Renogy just changed their software at some point and modified their equalization algorithm. The new ones are not pushing the battery voltage up as high, at least not at the same time as the old ones are. 

Originally posted by offgrid My sense is that there is nothing actually wrong with either controller. Renogy just changed their software at some point and modified their equalization algorithm. The new ones are not pushing the battery voltage up as high, at least not at the same time as the old ones are.

The obvious question, for me, is...

Is there any harm in charging flooded batteries @ 14.7v for any length of time? Perhaps most controllers don't have digital readouts so neophytes like me don't try to over think the process?

fred

Maybe make a producer gas generator and take it camping instead of the solar 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9dRY8O3IFA - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9dRY8O3IFA

Wood?! Yeah, I got a little wood. About half red oak and half white ash. Some people pay for a gym membership. I axe split wood.

We burn about 3 cords a year.

[TUBE]1up30ZrFNKE[/TUBE]

How well does that bark work to keep the wood dry vs, the tarps, and did you cut and stitch up the long narrow tarp strips or buy them somewhere like that? 

I just buy cheap tarps, cut them up and staple to rows. I just haven't got around to covering all the rows. The bark is just thrown on top for grins. I'll burn it.

Ha.. I learned it from my Grandfather who did it in Newfoundland. Not just a WV thing! Between that and the Kindling Cracker life is good! Well, the splitter as well...

Yeah, I am sure the tire method was invented shortly after the wheel was. Now I have to have that Kindling Cracker!! I thought I was hip with my Fiskars 28 inch hookaroon!

Modified version of panel mount/stand is much stronger. Shortened legs, glued it up, added some bracing with pvc blocks and vhb tape and added a simple preventer with paracord and trucker's hitch to keep it from collapsing. It's easier to adjust than the Renogy suitcase.

I think this will work.

Thanks John. I may have accidentally somehow reset the controller. I swapped battery and solar connections. Yes, I have them clearly labeled. Just wasn't paying attention. Anyway it complained about battery overload. When I hooked it up properly, it seems it may be functioning better. At least, when side-by-side with new controller.

I have detailed all of this to Renogy. It would be nice to hear from them.

I would guess that the controller just resets when you disconnect it from battery power. One of the software versions warns against having a load on the batt during equalization because it can get stuck if that's happening, not sure which version was causing the issue originally at this point. Anyhow in gel/AGM mode it will never equalize so problem solved. You don't need both controllers to equalize anyhow. 

Ohhh, thanks guys! I was able to spin them off while vhb was hot and not cured. I should have known better. Was really overkill anyway. It's plenty strong without.

That's why I visit this place!

OK, I think this will work. Now you can see why I kept the stretcher inboard. Needed to make room for my rod holder and a kayak on other side of rod holder (lightweight sch 40 Foam core PVC).

I made up a length of 10 AWG, sleeved with braided cable sleeve. Mc4 on panel end. Anderson powerpole 45 amp on other end. I use a lot of anderson powerpoles and bonded zip cord from Powerwerx. The cable snakes down the inside edge of back hatch. It's not pinched.

Haven't decided how to attach to roof rack. Could just lash it down with some paracord or u-bolt or combination. Dunno yet.

Short answer is:  If I'm going to carry the panel anyway, why not put it to work?

More than that though...

The last couple of years I have been getting an inexplicable flame-out with no restart while running fridge on propane while towing. I traveled across country and back and many other trips with no issue. I still have not figured out why or come up with a good solution yet. Anyway, the easy/quick solution was to switch fridge to 12v and keep on going. Heretofore, I have arrived at either a campground with hookups or home so I put the problem on the back burner, so to speak. Strangely, the fridge always fired up in propane mode with no problem when I arrived.

I did notice the batteries take a hit after an all day drive running the fridge on 12v.

What research I could find re: Toyota 4Runner or Tacoma, the 7 pin is just too wimpy to supply any significant charge to trailer batteries.

Further, I did come across this which may be worth considering:

The Bargeman Supply "+12V" does not normally have sufficient voltage to charge Trailer Batteries. In modern vehicles, including the Tundra, the Alternator contains an electronic controller which adjusts output (Voltage, and therefore Amps) according to the measured "State of Charge" found via the "Sense" wire. For a short time after starting, the voltage WILL be sufficient to charge the batteries - but the "State of Charge" recovers pretty quickly, and the alternator reduces its voltage to a "float" level of 13.5 - 13.8V.

All that said, if I'm gonna carry the panel anyway, might as well put it to work.

And it's a fun project.

Triple duty! Guarding bee hives! Group 24 w/electric fence.

You guys are overthinking this a bit.

There is no harm done by connecting up the PV module while driving, but your alternator will work fine as well, It will  set its voltage at around 13.5-13.8 which means it will maintain the TV batt at that voltage. That's what its supposed to do. 

Meanwhile back at the trailer battery, the voltage maintained will be a little lower. There will be a voltage drop from the current flow feeding the fridge in the conductors going to the bargeman from the TV batt and from the bargeman to the trailer batt. Assume 10AWG wire (should be), a total one way distance of 20 ft and the fridge requirement of about 10A you will be around 0.5V lower at the trailer battery, so still over 13V. No big deal, trailer battery will still be fully charged when you get to camp, just not floated.

And you don't need to separately connect the bargeman and solar either. The PV system and the alt can charge in parallel. In fact, if you want you can just connect the solar charge controller at the TV side of the bargeman and it will charge both the TV and trailer batteries. Either use 10AWG wire or add an appropriate fuse where you connect if you use smaller gauge wire. 

Hey Leo-welcome back

we missed you

Vann

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006NOC8Q6/ - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006NOC8Q6/

Busy afternoon here rounding up the herd for branding. Fishing knots are good practice for making the lasso to catch these guys! That's Alfred, Al, Adam, Bob, Billybob, Billy Jr., Bud, Budowski, Baxter, Charlie, Carlos....

I start the roundup with the boy bees (drones) 'cuz they are easy to catch and don't have a stinger. The vast majority of the hive are girl worker bees and they can be really mean!

The drones are lazy boys. Their only work is to mate with a queen and only the fittest few will get this pleasure. Otherwise they sit around the hive being looked after by the workers or hang round on the bee equivalent of street corners waiting for a young queen to come by. All summer they luxuriate. But when the weather gets cold the workers drive these passengers outside to die. And yes, its true that when a drone mates with the queen he dies in the act.

Let that sink in...

Didn't know till I looked up bee reproduction just now that boy bees were haploid and females diploid, So the number of members in each generation going back are the sum of the two preceding ones, the Fibonacci sequence....1,1,2,3,5,6,13,21....Weird.