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Experiment

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Forum Name: Mods, Maintenance, Tips and Tricks
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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=13859
Printed Date: 28 Apr 2024 at 4:33pm
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Topic: Experiment
Posted By: marwayne
Subject: Experiment
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 7:30pm
Many people ask how they can attach things to the walls, so this is my experiment. I took a piece of wall panel, drilled a 1/16" pilot hole and put in a coarse thread drywall screw to find out how many pounds of pull it would it take to pull it out. the scale the pounds just as the screw started to pull out. It took about 37.5 pounds.

https://postimages.org/">


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If you want something done right, do it yourself.
2011 RP172, 2016 Tundra 5.7 Litre, Ltd.





Replies:
Posted By: fwunder
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 8:00pm
37.5 lbs is a lot!!

Could easily hang this 35 lb. striper! Probably not over a speed bump, though.




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2014 RPod 178 => https://goo.gl/CV446f - MyMods and Buying Habits
2008 4Runner Limited 4.0-liter V6
Yes, those are wild ponies dining on grass while dumping tanks!


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 7:10am
Testing this is great and on the right track but a few comments.

In the case of hanging stuff I think you want to do a shear (lateral) load test not an axial load test. Most likely the attachment is stronger that way but it’s thin material so it’s worth testing to see. How far from the wall you apply the load makes a difference because it’s a little lever, so pick something typical for something hanging on a wall, maybe 1/4 or 1/2 inch?

Also since wood is a variable material you typically get a load variation in test results so you need to do multiple tests and look for the average and standard deviation. Generally speaking that is about 5-10 tests. If the variation in the first 5 tests is less than say 10% then thats good enough. Do the test slowly as wood unlike metal can take a lot more load for short periods than long ones.

I can dig out my Wood Products Handbook and see but IIRC for single fasteners a safety factor of about 2 is specified for short duration loads like bump loads in an rpod. Since those loads are about 2g I think an overall 4x safety factor would be safe. That would be around10 lbs per screw for the pullout test but I think it will end up being more than that for a shear load.

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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: JR
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 7:26am
Good test and everything that was learned so to extrapolate the findings if I use 2 drywall screws in the wall does that mean that I can hang something that has a weight of 75 pounds (4 screws 150 lbs) before the screws start to fail (pull out of the wall)?? 

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Jay

179/2019


Posted By: EchoGale
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 8:10am
Every once in a while I read something here and think "oh, my! 'the guys' are going to have a field day with this." It usually has to do with tow vehicles and weight limits. 

I think you're kidding...right?LOL


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Julie


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 8:20am
Originally posted by JR

Good test and everything that was learned so to extrapolate the findings if I use 2 drywall screws in the wall does that mean that I can hang something that has a weight of 75 pounds (4 screws 150 lbs) before the screws start to fail (pull out of the wall)?? 

No, it doesn't work that way. Its close to 2x for 2 fasteners but after that it stars to drop off because some fasteners (usually the outer ones in a row) take more load, and you reach a point where the inner ones aren't doing much. Also, see me previous post re load testing and safety factors. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 8:28am
Originally posted by EchoGale

Every once in a while I read something here and think "oh, my! 'the guys' are going to have a field day with this." It usually has to do with tow vehicles and weight limits. 

I think you're kidding...right?LOL

Sometimes by taking things to extreme limits you can identify where the assumptions have gone wrong. Practical engineering is fun, everybody gets to learn some stuff they didn't know before. Much better to do it with stuff hanging on walls of an rpod than say finding out the hard way because of a bridge collapse. Star

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKKDLKYsVU - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKKDLKYsVU


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 9:04am
I think that an experiment should be set up using a section of wall from an rPod in which each method mentioned by members is tested to see which is strongest.  The test could use 3 applications of lateral force:  one sudden, one for a sustained period of time, and one that simulates repeated applications of lateral force as in bouncing down the road, with, as OG suggests, 5 actual load tests for each fastening method to compute averages.

To make it interesting, the members of the board could place bets on which method s/he feels will win with the money pooled.  The winner(s) would be those who selected the strongest fastening method would win the pot.  Big smile


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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: EchoGale
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 9:08am
I'm in for the betting!

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Julie


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 9:16am
Never mind all that, was the fish fry good?

Cool


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: JR
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 10:01am
OG thanks for the reply, I am not an engineer but I didn't think that's the way it works but using Command velcro strips one in each corner seems to work well for me and I must say there is quite a bit of "overkill" on the weight limitations of each strip when I hang something up.  My method seems to be working for us.

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Jay

179/2019


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 11:18am
Originally posted by lostagain

I think that an experiment should be set up using a section of wall from an rPod in which each method mentioned by members is tested to see which is strongest.  The test could use 3 applications of lateral force:  one sudden, one for a sustained period of time, and one that simulates repeated applications of lateral force as in bouncing down the road, with, as OG suggests, 5 actual load tests for each fastening method to compute averages.

To make it interesting, the members of the board could place bets on which method s/he feels will win with the money pooled.  The winner(s) would be those who selected the strongest fastening method would win the pot.  Big smile


I'm good except you don't need to do the duration test portion, that data is available. Its like this for wood:

10 years 1.0
2 months 1.15
1 week: 1.25
10 minutes: 1.6
Impact 2.0

Meaning that wood can take 2x the impact load that it can a 10 year occupancy load. 

The 10 minute load is typically used for peak wind and earthquake loads for buildings but our rolling earthquake-mobiles get a lot more than 10 minutes of "earthquakes". Probably the 1 week duration would be more appropriate for us.  

So probably the best thing would be to apply the test loads for 10 minutes to each sample screw, average those loads, divide that by 1.6/1.25=1.28 and call that the max bump load rating. Since the bump loads are about 2gs that means that a factor of about 2.56 over the actual weight on the screw should probably be used. 

There is also the typical engineering factor of safety added on top of that. I just did a quick look for safety factor for wood fasteners and found 6x is typical for pullout loads and 1.6 to 2 for lateral loads because of variability, humidity, and aging, 

Using the 1.6 number I get an overall multiplier of 2.56 x 1.6 - 4.1, call it 4, or an allowable 1/4 of the average lateral test load at failure. 



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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 11:24am
Originally posted by JR

OG thanks for the reply, I am not an engineer but I didn't think that's the way it works but using Command velcro strips one in each corner seems to work well for me and I must say there is quite a bit of "overkill" on the weight limitations of each strip when I hang something up.  My method seems to be working for us.

The reason I prefer fasteners to adhesives is the long term failure risk of adhesives. They can be great right after you attach things but a few months later they can fail due to changes in temp and humidity. Fastener strength varies with environmental conditions too but not nearly as much and that is taken into account in the safety factor. 

If you want to use the adhesive method that's fine, I just personally have had those strips fail on me so I don't trust them in the long run. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 11:30am
Ok with me to eliminate the duration part of the test.  I was just trying to cover all the possibilities, like the picture that had been hanging on the wall for a year and suddenly falls off in the night.  But if that isn't necessary, it's fine with me.  Let the tests begin and the bets placed!

Personally, I think my method of a combination of a coarsely threaded short screw with a patch of 3M double sided extra strong foam tape will win the contest, but I have been wrong so many times in my life ......  Suffice it to say, I don't patronize our fine casinos here in Dayton, NV.  


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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 1:39pm
I was talking about wood fasteners. Those aren't subject to near as much variation as adhesives are, so you can test them quickly. 

If you're going to allow adhesives as part of the test then a year probably is about right and a you'd have to to test for all sorts of humidity and temp conditions, surface prep variation, etc. For solar modules, which are of course held together by adhesives, you do heat soak, thermal cycle and humidity freeze testing, really nasty. You need a test chamber and months of testing.


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2020 at 1:10pm
Love it!  I'm with OG.

For corroboration, We used a factor of safety of 4 for wood poles carrying transmission lines.  The poles were Southern yellow Pine, one of the strongest woods. 

Generally, bumps should be considered impact loads and doubled for equivalent weight. 

Please retest with your screw almost screwed all the way in and loaded parallel to the wood panel (90 deg/in shear).  I'll bet the result is about twice the 37 lbs you got. 

Then, your load rating should be that divided by 4 for safety and divided again by 2 for impact.  Let's guess and call it 10 lbs.  *I* would allow double that for 2 screws on the top row if they are at the same "elevation", but only allow half that for screws in an additional row (5 lbs/screw).  There is a shear strength and buckling load limit for the panel, so don't go hanging propane bottles on your walls.  Big smile  I also wouldn't place the screws closer than about 4" apart, as the stresses from one overlap and add to the stress from the other.  Admittedly, 4" is a guestimate without further data. 


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John
'16 R-Pod 180


Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2020 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by offgrid


The reason I prefer fasteners to adhesives is the long term failure risk of adhesives. They can be great right after you attach things but a few months later they can fail due to changes in temp and humidity. Fastener strength varies with environmental conditions too but not nearly as much and that is taken into account in the safety factor. 

If you want to use the adhesive method that's fine, I just personally have had those strips fail on me so I don't trust them in the long run. 


Shut up in the hot sun, my pod got hot enough for one of my Command Strips to come loose.  It was holding a picture.  The others stayed on without a load.  I'd expect they will all work fine, if the temps are controlled. 


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John
'16 R-Pod 180


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2020 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Colt

Love it!  I'm with OG.

For corroboration, We used a factor of safety of 4 for wood poles carrying transmission lines.  The poles were Southern yellow Pine, one of the strongest woods. 

Generally, bumps should be considered impact loads and doubled for equivalent weight. 

Please retest with your screw almost screwed all the way in and loaded parallel to the wood panel (90 deg/in shear).  I'll bet the result is about twice the 37 lbs you got. 

Then, your load rating should be that divided by 4 for safety and divided again by 2 for impact.  Let's guess and call it 10 lbs.  *I* would allow double that for 2 screws on the top row if they are at the same "elevation", but only allow half that for screws in an additional row (5 lbs/screw).  There is a shear strength and buckling load limit for the panel, so don't go hanging propane bottles on your walls.  Big smile  I also wouldn't place the screws closer than about 4" apart, as the stresses from one overlap and add to the stress from the other.  Admittedly, 4" is a guestimate without further data. 

+1. We engineers are often accused of being a conservative bunch, but generally our customers aren't happy with us when our designs fail. You might go a long time without a failure with lower safety factors, but statistics being what they are it could happen tomorrow. 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



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