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Sizing Santa Fe and R-Pod 178

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Topic: Sizing Santa Fe and R-Pod 178
Posted By: jbar
Subject: Sizing Santa Fe and R-Pod 178
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2020 at 4:24pm
Hi All.  I joined on the chance my girlfriend and I are purchasing a 2016 R-Pod 178 this weekend.  I have a 2009 Hyundai Santa Fe (3.3l AWD v6 motor) with a 3500 towing capacity.  The R-Pod (with fluids) GVWR comes out around 3750 pounds.  While I doubt we'll leave home with a full water tank, is it risky even if I drive slow?  I got two conflicting pieces of advice:
1) Get an RV trailer no more than 60% of your capacity (so for me that's only 2,100 pounds)
2) The US ratings are much too conservative and a 3500 capacity is likely closer to 5000 (based on Europe numbers - which I never saw.
I lean towards the safe side.  Any experience with this?

My second question is easier I hope.  The Santa Fe already has the wiring harness for a trailer.  From what I'm reading, that will need to converter to 7 wire.  Etrailer seems to have some converters https://www.etrailer.com/bc-2009_Hyundai_Santa+Fe.htm  Can anyone please clue me in on what to look for?  It would be nice to be able to switch from trailer to RV by simply plugging/unplugging.  We're excited on the possibility of taking this journey but want to cover our basesSmile

Thank you




Replies:
Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2020 at 5:12pm
I had a 2010 Sante Fe with same motor. You need a 7 pin and a brake controller. I would never tow my 2015 178 with it. It does not have what I would consider adequate capacity at 3500 lbs. In my opinion you need 5000 lbs of towing capacity. I don't overload my 178 and right now my tongue weight is 372 lbs. I would not consider a 2009 and a 178 a good match. My 2 cents.

-------------
Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2020 at 6:24pm
+1 to mcarter. The Santa Fe is not enough to tow that trailer safely. Tow ratings assume there is nothing in the tow vehicle, which is of course not realistic. So, you would be towing a trailer that is already too heavy even before you put any gear or passengers in the Santa Fe.

I don't know what the Santa Fe might be rated for for Europe, but it doesn't matter. The US is not Europe. We have busy freeways with big trucks going 75 mph, high mountains, rough roads, and long distances. Also, if you overload your trailer and have a wreck, you would be considered to be negligent and liable for any damage or injury you caused. Imagine standing up in court and saying "well, what I did would have been OK in Europe". See what I mean? 

Get a lighter trailer or a heavier tow vehicle, be safe and make your towing experience safe and pleasant. 

As for tow vehicle electrical connections, you will need a brake controller which needs a wire to send power to the trailer brakes. You will also need a 12V supply to the trailer from the TV so you can charge the trailer battery while driving, and run the fridge on 12V as well if you want to be able to do that rather than use propane. That requires a 7 way connector and some new wire runs as well as a brake controller install. You can get an etrailer kit and do that yourself, its not hard, but please do yourself a favor and don't do that in the Santa Fe. 




-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jbar
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2020 at 7:02pm
Thank you both.  The dry weight is supposed to be 2600/hitch weight 257.  I'm assuming much of the GVWR comes from the 36 gallon water tank/30 gallon grey tank = 650 pounds.  Not sure where the extra 500 pounds comes from (probably upgrades and camping supplies).  Even assuming that, dry should be 3103.  The Santa Fe will have my girlfriend and her dog (plus any cargo not placed in the R-Pod.  I don't know how the geometry works with these things.  Just guessing but it feels like weight in the back of the trailer would help with hitch weight if it got too high.  I saw someone with a RAV4 on your boards but guessing they were towing the smaller R-Pod.  I don't know of any of this helps.  We are not under pressure to buy and the Santa Fe could eventually be upsized to accommodate.  Thanks again


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2020 at 7:23am
My 179 is listed with an empty weight of 2630, hitch weight 285. The actual weights (measured at a public scale) when loaded for boondocking (dual batteries, full fresh water tank, other tanks empty, a week's supplies, a few tools, not much else) is 3700 lbs and 500 on the tongue. The max gross weight of the trailer is 3785 so I am within 85 lbs of that. 

So, my recommendation when looking at trailers and tow vehicles is to use the gross trailer weight (GTW), and forget the empty weight, particularly if you will be boondocking. The 178 has a gross trailer weight of 3795, essentially the same as mine and most of the mid sized rPods. 

In addition to staying within tow weight and tongue weight ratings, take a look at the max combined gross vehicle weight rating of the tow vehicle, should be on your driver door sticker. Then, take the GTW, add the curb weight of the TV, add 80 lbs for a weight distribution hitch (which you will want), add the weight of driver, passengers, and gear in the TV. Don't underestimate the gear, you will for sure want to bring some stuff you probably haven't thought of yet, tools, grill, pop up rain and bug shelter, a generator or solar module, etc etc.  It adds up quick. 

Compare those two numbers, consider where you will be travelling, and how close you really want to be the limits of the vehicle. I stay about 1000 lbs under my MCGVWR, more than that just starts to feel like a white knuckle experience, especially in the mountains, rainy weather, or on a busy freeway. 

BTW, you should never have both a full fresh and gray tank at the same time. If you're boondocking, empty the gray and black tanks before refilling the fwt. If you have hookups, then you don't need any water in your fwt anyway.

Re shifting weight aft to reduce tongue weight, that is generally not a good idea. You need the tongue weight to always be at least 10% of total trailer weight, more is better. The lower the tongue weight the more a trailer is prone to sway, and rPods do exhibit sway at about 10% tongue weight. I like my tongue weight at 12% or more. Check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fkOVHAC8Q - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fkOVHAC8Q

Yes, there are folks towing the mid sized rPods with RAV 4's. There are folks that do or talk themselves into doing all kinds of things that you can read about on the internet. But I think that you will find the consensus opinion on this site is that that is not the way to go. If you do want to tow with the Santa Fe why not get a smaller trailer, like a TAB? 


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jbar
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2020 at 8:40am
Very helpful Offgrid!  Thank you


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2020 at 9:47am
I will add to the chorus. The water tank(s) can add to the gross weight if you're boondocking, but there are other things like batteries, propane, and just "gear" that will also add to the gross weight, and perhaps more importantly, the tongue weight. I have yet to see any trailer, Rpod or not, come in with anything close to the dry weight. The dry weight is an advertising number, and not a lot more. I would be happy if makers were required to list dry, "typical", and gross weights.

So I think that vehicle is not quite up to the task.


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2020 at 12:16pm
If I recall the hitch on my 2010 Sante Fe was an add on, Class II I think. It was not sufficient to tow a Pod.

-------------
Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: jbar
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2020 at 12:52pm
Thanks again all.  We are now discussing a beefier vehicle.  Sounds like a 2010 (or newer) 3.5L Toyota Highlander would be the minimum to safely tow but I've got to research more.


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2020 at 2:01pm
jbar, some very knowledgable folks have offered some very wise advice.  I can say +3 to mcarter, OG, and GlueGuy.  

-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2020 at 5:13am
Originally posted by jbar

Thanks again all.  We are now discussing a beefier vehicle.  Sounds like a 2010 (or newer) 3.5L Toyota Highlander would be the minimum to safely tow but I've got to research more.

That's what I tow with. It is fine for the 179 including boondocking loads, but I wouldn't go any smaller on the tow vehicle or any larger on the trailer. You will still want a weight distribution hitch and antisway system. A 5000 lb rated Honda Pilot or other comparable mid-size SUV would also work. 

If you go the Highlander route be sure to confirm with the VIN that you are really getting a Highlander with the 5000 lb tow rating. Any Toyota parts dept can do that for you.  Not all 3.5 V6 Highlanders are rated for that. There is an additional oil cooler for one thing that you effectively cannot add aftermarket. 




-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jbar
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2020 at 6:02am
Great advice on the VIN check.  I like having an upgraded oil cooler and radiator fan(s) and will research those as well.


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2020 at 6:49am
The 5000 lb tow Highlanders have an oil cooler, upgraded rad and rad fans, tranny cooler, and a higher capacity alternator. I've never had the slightest hint of overheating in mine, and the alt runs the fridge on 12V plus its normal loads no problem. Of course, I'm in the East so I don't know how it would do say on a long grade in AZ in the summer. 

One other consideration in selecting a tow vehicle. No matter what you tow with you will get around 13-14 mpg because fuel consumption is dominated by trailer air drag. Less in the mountains going up and down grades. So, the small SUV's with 15-ish gallon fuel tanks don't really work well, you end up stopping for gas every 120 miles or so, and you better fill up before heading into a remote area or you might not get back. The Highlander tank is about 20 gal which gives you a practical range of about 200 miles. Big difference. I wouldn't want anything smaller than that. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jbar
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2020 at 7:03pm
My girlfriend just bought a 2019 Subaru Ascent - 30K.  I was surprised


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:40am
Hopefully she got the 5000 lb tow rated version..

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: john in idaho
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:48am
Try towing with a full size pickup or Suv sometime.  You will never go back.


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 9:09am
Originally posted by john in idaho

Try towing with a full size pickup or Suv sometime.  You will never go back.

I went back. I got tired of driving around in a big pickup truck all the time. If I was using the vehicle exclusively for towing than sure, a big truck is better, but I, like most people, need my vehicle to serve multiple purposes. A mid sized AWD SUV is comfortable for the family, has lots of enclosed secure space, is easy to maneuver and park, and can go most anywhere I need it to. 

I won't be getting a pickup again. In order to have enough room in the cab for a family you either have to get a pickup with a turning radius about the size of a football field or you end up with what I consider to be a vestigial truck bed. I can get longer objects in my SUV than folks can get in those 5 1/2 ft truck beds. And a roof rack is easy on an SUV. I have an old straight load two horse trailer I leave the divider out of that I use for big, tall or dirty stuff, and it keeps the stuff secure and out of the rain too. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jbar
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 9:25am
Yes, 5000 lb. We just need to add the oem tow hitch. Apparently, several of the aftermarket ones don’t have good tongue weight


Posted By: poston
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 9:30am
Originally posted by offgrid

I went back. I got tired of driving around in a big pickup truck all the time. If I was using the vehicle exclusively for towing than sure, a big truck is better, but I, like most people, need my vehicle to serve multiple purposes. A mid sized AWD SUV is comfortable for the family, has lots of enclosed secure space, is easy to maneuver and park, and can go most anywhere I need it to.

Same here.  I love my Xterra's manueverability offroad and in the central business district.  It's just a pain to navigate a big boat in restricted quarters.  But yeah, a big rig definitely would make it easier when towing, but that's only about 10% of my miles.




-------------

--
Jim
Virginia City, Nevada
2016 R-pod 180
2015 Nissan Xterra Pro-4X


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 9:47am
Originally posted by jbar

Yes, 5000 lb. We just need to add the oem tow hitch. Apparently, several of the aftermarket ones don’t have good tongue weight

Check whether Subaru authorizes use of a weight distribution hitch with the OEM receiver. You will prefer the ride and handling towing with a wdh. Some manufacturers allow them, some don't, and some are silent on the issue. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jbar
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 10:44am
I did my homework prior to buying. WDH is a big no no. The vehicle was manufactured to handle it. We saw the R-Pod 178 and liked it but my GF wants to check out some other configurations.  The dining area seems to waste some space and in a perfect world, we'd get the dry bath (though not a show stopper).  Her neighbor had a fantastic idea for using the camper at home...........home office.  Her house is crowded and disruptive.  Working from home (due to COVID) can be challenging.


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2020 at 7:39pm
To be clear, a wdh doesn't increase a tow vehicle's capacity. So all TV's should be capable of towing their rated load without a wdh. In that sense they are all manufactured to handle it.  But, when a trailer is hung on a hitch the tongue load lifts the front axle of the TV up, and the wdh puts the front axle load back where it was, improving balance, braking, and steering. Up to you if you use one or not of course. 

My wife is a long time remote worker and has used our rPod many times as an office when we travel. You can use the TV as a second monitor which helps keep the interior organized. The biggest drawback is that the ergonomics of sitting in the dinette are terrible and her back would be killing her after awhile. 


-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jbar
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 7:24am
We will be sure to follow the guidelines.  If any Ascent owners need the link discussing WDH https://tinyurl.com/y24rf56d
For home office, I was wondering if chair would fit through the door either that or add some ergonomic cushions and take plenty of stretch (and bed) breaks Smile
Thank you again - Amazing forum


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 10:34am
I took a look at that discussion. The attachment between the OEM hitch and the Ascent unibody frame does not look like it can transfer the moment loads from a wdh to the frame. And obviously Subaru does not authorize it. So in that I agree with the author, you shouldn't use one. 

However, his next statement, that the Ascent has design features so that it wouldn't benefit from a wdh, simply can't be true. Basic physics is basic physics, the tow vehicle is like a teeter totter pivoting around the rear axle, so without a wdh the load on the front axle will be reduced when a load is applied to the hitch. That is inherently not good, and there is no magic frame and suspension design that can fix that. A wdh does. 

As for antisway, adding sway control might confuse the vehicle's electronic sway control, which is going to be using accelerometers and/or load sensors to adjust braking action at the tow vehicle wheels. However, only friction based antisway or systems that control the brakes on the trailer are going to directly function to keep the trailer behind the tow vehicle once sway starts. So, I'd look into that further before making a decision. Both friction and brake based antisway systems are available separately from wdh. 

We did set my wife up with cushions and that helps, but its not like having a proper office chair. I'm sure you could get a chair through the door by partially disassembling it if it didn't fit. But where to put it? Someone on the forum might have a solution, you could try asking that question specifically on another thread. 

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



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