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Response from FR Customer Service

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Topic: Response from FR Customer Service
Posted By: KirkH
Subject: Response from FR Customer Service
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 11:10am
I contacted Forest River customer service to ask where the "pre-wired" solar wires terminated.  They were not behind the GoPower template label that was on the cabinet by the door, like it said they would be.

Here's their response:
Due to our policy you will need to contact your dealer for this information.   We are not allowed for safety reasons to give this to owners.

The dealer would also be the one to install the solar panel and converter.

What a joke! After the problems I have had with my new travel trailer, I wouldn't let the dealer anywhere near my camper!  i've had to fix so many things that were not assembled correctly.  I can't install solar power ON MY OWN CAMPER?!?!?!




Replies:
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 11:41am
Of course you can. You can install ceiling fans in your own house too, but you have to ignore the instructions in the box which say to have a licensed professional do it. FR is just protecting itself from incurring legal liability by someone “misunderstanding” their instructions.

Several others have noted that there are two wires leading in and out of that area, one end of each going to the roof for solar input and the other ends going to the battery area for the solar charge controller output. If you think you might have that situation then you can confirm it without cutting the wires by connecting the wires to each other at the battery end (not to the battery) and then going on the roof with an ohmmeter and checking continuity there between the two wires. If you have continuity then disconnect the wires at the battery and confirm that the two wires on the roof now show open circuit. Then you can cut the wires and install your controller in the space provided and the solar module on the roof.

Do please also install an appropriately sized fuse at the battery positive terminal as part of the install, otherwise if you get a short between the battery and the controller you can start a fire. You don’t need a fuse between The solar module and the controller, it won’t do anything anyway.

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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: KirkH
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 12:13pm
Thanks.  Yeah I know I can install it on the camper, I just think it's ridiculous that they won't answer the question.

So you are saying that the pre-wired solar cables terminate at the battery?  There are 2 smaller cables/wires attached to the battery, that may be them.  I will use my digital multimeter to check those.


Posted By: mcarter
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 1:31pm
Yes, the two small cables at battery are the solar connections.  Meter is always a good idea. +1 to OG regarding fuse addition.

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Mike Carter
2015 178
" I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by KirkH

Thanks.  Yeah I know I can install it on the camper, I just think it's ridiculous that they won't answer the question.
So you are saying that the pre-wired solar cables terminate at the battery?  There are 2 smaller cables/wires attached to the battery, that may be them.  I will use my digital multimeter to check those.


Look at it from FR’s perspective. What do they have to gain by answering the question? Nothing. What do they have to loose? A lawsuit if you screw it up based on their instructions and burn up your trailer. They could take the time to write up detailed generic msolar install instructions with all the appropriate safety warnings, but since they aren’t selling the add on solar kits they wouldn’t make any money doing that. It’s like asking your car manufacturer how to install an accessory they didn’t sell you. Never happens.

+ 1 to mcarter’s post.

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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 10:11am
FR cannot, in the long run, avoid responsibility for providing information on the use of its products by pawning legal responsibility off to an uncontrolled dealer network.  There is a doctrine in product liability in most states called "foreseeable misuse" that will bite them in the board room if they do not provide adequate information on their RV's to permit safe use.  

Dealers will get smart to this ploy very quickly and will decline to give "advice" to FR product owners.  If this is going to be the future for FR's customer service, then I, for one, if I ever buy another trailer, will be looking at manufacturers who give support to their customers.  

As for what FR has to lose by declining to provide information and parts for their products, the answer is simple: customers.  If people can't get information they need to maintain their RVs, and the dealers are not inclined to be helpful, then smart buyers will look for other manufacturers.  

Thankfully, most RVs are built of generic parts that can be purchased through after market vendors.  There are very few brand specific parts apart from interior decorative materials such as wall panel vinyl or cabinetry.  


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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 2:11pm
I expect that what is happening in the case of the solar is that go solar or zamp are paying fr for them to install the wire runs and for the opportunity to put the solar companies logos on the trailers. That is likely the extent of FR’s involvement. Everything else is handled by go solar/zamp through the dealer. So FR just points customers that way if they ask about solar. They aren’t involved in the solar installs and might even be in violation of their business arrangement with the solar companies if the were to provide diy advice, as that would take business away from the solar guys. Basically it’s a marketing agreement. Such arrangements are very common in the solar biz and I expect also in many others. I used to do them myself.

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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 4:34pm
Recently, FR made a corporate decision, at least according to some FR people I talked to, to no longer sell parts or offer technical information about their RVs, but to instead refer all questions to FR dealers, regardless of the FR brand name of the trailer.  An example:  I needed to purchase some wall panel seam tape and contacted FR for the color name based upon my vin.  It took a bit to even get them to reveal the name of the color pattern and when I asked about purchasing a quantity, they said they no longer sell to consumers, that all parts must be purchased through a dealer.  The representative explained that the corporate bigshots were trying to pass on responsibility for their RVs to the dealers and escape liability for themselves.  

In regard to specific vendor produced items, such as a solar system or a stove, they've always referred inquiries to the manufacturer of the item.  But for FR designed connections to those appliances, they used to give some advice.  Now, you must beg the information from your nearest FR dealer regardless of whether the dealer is familiar with that particular brand of trailer.  The dealers are going to get smart real fast and stop offering advice.  Effectively, it's a concerted effort to stop maintenance outside of FR's dealers which effectively is a restraint of free trade and invites foreseeable misuse which will cost FR and the dealers in the long run both in loss of customer confidence and in legal fees and judgments.


-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 6:29am
Sounds like FR is trying to transition to a full dealer based sales, delivery, service and support channel model. They have had a mixed model up to now, dealers for sales and delivery, factory for at least some service and support. The mixed model is more expensive for them because they have to maintain a significant call center and service ticket infrastructure, as well as pay skilled experts to be able to answer technical questions from end customers. Now they will be able to pass that cost to their dealers, just like the auto manufacturers. Try calling up Ford or Toyota and have them explain something technical to you about the car you bought😜

As for the “solar ready” option, that is pretty unique. It’s not like a stove, which FR buys, installs, and then sells to you, so they are directly in the chain of commerce for that item. The solar kit is bought by you either from the vendor of from a dealer. All FR does is run a couple wires as directed by the solar company, and place a sticker telling you who to contact for a solar system after you buy the trailer. The solar supplier is no doubt paying FR for the privilege of getting those “locked in” sales leads, which is of course why those kits are more expensive than just buying the gear directly. This sales model was really common in the early days of solar when it was more expensive and not well understood by the public. Now that solar is mainstream and FR sells a solar option directly, I expect this will disappear. Eventually it will probably be a standard feature.

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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 6:47am
This topic has come up before, posted by me and others. I had a similar issue...they would not even tell me where inside the camper I might find the wires, what color codes they would be, or what gauge wire to be looking for.

Yeah, Forest River Customer Service, 'ain't'.

Like the OP, my nearest dealer is not knowledgeable on solar and such, they are too busy, and they are too far away to be of any use. Plus I can do this stuff myself. But I didn't really want to be looking without any idea of where the wires might be, so I called them. Keep in mind that my r-pod DID have the MC4 port on the roof but did NOT have a port or sticker or anything on the side or back of the outside of the camper. Nothing. Other than the port on the roof, there was a 'GoPower' sticker on the  cabinet above the sink, adjacent to the radio.

It would have been SO simple for the CS person to simply say, yeah those wires are in the so-and-so area normally, and we always use purple and orange wires, or whatever....

If this is any help to the OP, the two wires leading from the roof MC4 connector to the interior of the camper, were found tucked away inside the cabinet where the sticker is and the radio is mounted on my 171. The two pairs of wires were red and black, 10 (or maybe 12) gauge IIRC, and were bundled up with the existing harness for the radio with no markings or labels.

As we've seen in another post, Forest River will gladly sell an owner a new $1100 fridge...and certainly the removal of the old unit, and installation of the new one will expose the user (and Forest River) to risk.

Makes no sense to me at all.




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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 8:14am
Originally posted by podwerkz


As we've seen in another post, Forest River will gladly sell an owner a new $1100 fridge...and certainly the removal of the old unit, and installation of the new one will expose the user (and Forest River) to risk.
Makes no sense to me at all.




Annoying for sure but not really hard to understand. Follow the money. When FR sells you a fridge they make a profit from doing that, so they have made the business decision that the cost/risk to them from selling that fridge is worth it.

They do not make any money from selling the zamp or go solar or diy solar kit so they don’t have any incentive to help you with that. I’m not saying that’s right from a customer service point of view, just that that is how they think about it. Competition is fierce so they are always looking for places where they can reduce costs, and US based customer service departments with on call knowledgeable technical staff are expensive. We have all I’m sure noticed that most large companies that still do call center customer service do it in India or the Philippines. Low labor cost, good IT infrastructure, and decent English skills. Not too many travel trailers in India though so not a great option for FR. 😜

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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 8:35am
The automotive industry manufactures supply extensive information on the service and repair of their vehicles.  You can purchase OEM service manuals that contain very detailed step by step instructions on repairs.  This in necessary to allow independent service providers a chance to compete with the manufactures retail dealer service operations.  To deny this detailed information creates unfair restraints on trade and will land a manufacture in an unfair competition and anti-trust action.  

The same rules apply to RV manufacturers.  Their failure to provide adequate service information, such as wiring schematics for solar pre-wire configurations, is risky business and at some point, if the trend continues, they'll be having pre-prosecution meetings with DOJ anti-trust lawyers.  It also exposes them to product liability.  The failure to give adequate information for service and repair is often the basis for product liability actions.  It is quite foreseeable that a user will legitimately attempt repairs or installations of various systems such as a solar panel.  If the manufactures fails to provide adequate information about which wires are which and a user makes a reasonable attempt to connect a solar system but ends up burning up the RV and some of the occupants, it is a virtual certainty that FR will be invited to the party in court and will probably lose.

Fires in occupied RV are terrifying.  I know.  I represented a defendant in an RV fire many years ago and no one in the camper escaped without serious 3 degree burns.  When the jury looks at those horrible burn scars and hears each victim recount the terror of being trapped inside a burning RV, they are not inclined to give a manufacturer, who withheld information that could have prevented the fire, any break.  It would not be hard to prove that their desire to withhold information was profit driven, as OG suggested in his post.  If the plaintiffs proved it was more likely than not it was profit driven, it would probably result in a punitive damage award.  Ford learned that lesson with their infamous Pinto many years ago.


-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 8:56am
Originally posted by offgrid



Annoying for sure but not really hard to understand. Follow the money.

{snip}

They do not make any money from selling the zamp or go solar or diy solar kit so they don’t have any incentive to help you with that. I’m not saying that’s right from a customer service point of view, just that that is how they think about it.

Sorta like buying a new $45,000 F-150 from Ford, and a week later calling and asking customer service where the trailer brake controller wiring connector is....and them not wanting to tell you this. Huh? Its PART OF THE PRODUCT! Is there a 'risk' that you might get hurt messing with trailers and wiring and all that? Well YES...but you BOUGHT the pickup (in part) because you can hook a trailer to it!

Sorry, this is WRONG thinking. Makes NO sense. Customer service is supposed to also be about customer retention and maintaining loyalty...so you will buy another one from them and recommend them to all your friends.

There is certainly an 'incentive' to build customer loyalty...or...there should be.




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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 9:45am
All that said, the zamp connector is not located in a convenient place for actual solar use any way. On our RP179, the zamp connector is all the way at the back of the trailer, and the batteries are all the way in the front. Not useful in my opinion, as the back of the trailer is often where the shade is. So in actual use, you place the solar panels somewhere out in front of the trailer, and wire the controller directly to the batteries in the front.

IMO, the wiring for the zamp connector is just extra unneeded weight.



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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 10:03am
The automotive industry is much more mature than the RV industry. The cost of entry to make rvs is minuscule compared to the tooling and engineering for cars and trucks. So there have been lots of smaller players who come and go. But now with FR, Jayco and a few others consolidating the market that is changing. It appears to be headed in the direction that the auto industry has gone. So I agree that we will likely end up with more standardized well documented products, with customer service provided by the dealer network. It might take some litigation to accelerate that. The downside of that of course will be less product variations being offered, and I think we’re seeing some of that too at least in the rpod lineup.

Is it wrong thinking? Sure of course in the long run, but that’s what happens when you let the bean counters make your business decisions (no offense meant to the accounting profession) in an effort to increase quarterly profits. If you don’t like it then you can always buy a low volume high cost RV from a brand more focussed on customer service, like say Nucamp’s Tab.

Re the solar ready issue, You can’t compare it to general customer service problems. It’s a completely different business arrangement for FR. You don’t think FR puts those solar companies’ labels in there for free do you? Most likely they have to direct customer inquiries to those solar companies or dealers. I did exactly that with a couple of home builders selling “solar ready” homes when I was doing biz dev for a solar manufacturer a few years ago.



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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



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