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Speed limits on freeway

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Topic: Speed limits on freeway
Posted By: Idahoan
Subject: Speed limits on freeway
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 6:41pm
In May, we're driving cross country from Illinois, to Idaho, I-80 most of the way. We're driving a V-8 Tacoma pulling a 179, and we have stabilizer/anti sway bars on the rig/RV. 

We are newbies. 

My husband is nervous about this long drive. It will be our FIRST trip out and our FIRST time pulling an RV.

---What speed on the freeway is safest?

---We're thinking of driving about 8 hours a day, so if we go 55, that would be about 450 miles. Does that seem reasonable when pulling an RV, vs. just driving?

---Any tips on coping with wind in Nebraska and Wyoming? 

---Any general safety tips for a long trip? 
(We'll check the tires carefully before we leave, for one thing)

Along the way will be using freecampsites.net, a suggestion from another forum member. Looks like a very handy source!

You guys are great. Thanks!



-------------
LTheo
2018 179
2014 Toyota Tundra



Replies:
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 7:27pm
Welcome to this forum, your 24/7 owners manual.

Safest freeway speed is whatever you are comfortable with, as long as you don't go over the max. legal speed.  We have towed our 177 mainly with a couple different Explorers ('08 and '13) and most recently a '17 F-150 for over 34,000 miles just using a Curt anti-sway bar on each with no issues.

We find it good for our bodies to take a break after 2.5 to 3 hours driving just to get out and stretch  legs for a bit and refreshing the mind as well as keeping us more alert IMHO.

Pulling a trailer will place a bit more effort and wear on your body than just driving your Tacoma solo.  For us 450 miles is not unreasonable when driving across the midwest, but would be a lot going through the Rockies.  Your body will let you know when you have had enough and it is time to call it a day. 

We usually travel 60-65 on the highway, rarely do we ever pass anybody at that speed which is fine with me, I am not in a race and certainly love to see God's creation as we travel across this country.  After 10 years now of towing our 177 there was only one time when we decided to wait out a storm as winds were over 40 mph and we were observing a lot of trailers swaying enough, as well as smart semi drivers pulling off onto the shoulder to make our decision easier - that was in Kansas.  Enjoy your journey!


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 7:32pm
No faster than 60 MPH.

WDH with sway control or electronic sway control such as the Hayes Sway-Master. I recommend it as it does work and makes it a lot safer. This is important with the wind. Now, the RPod is better than the 5th wheels because it is lower and does not catch as much wind. Better does not mean that you won't get pushed. It is just that you won't get pushed as hard.  Again, the Hayes Sway-Master or equivalent such as that from Tuson are very helpful. You already have sway control, but the electronic sway control is for those situations where regular sway control might not be enough. I encountered one such situation which is why I take the belt and suspenders approach.

You are optimistic on the 450 miles. Plan on between 300 and 400. You will want to stop for meals and other necessary stops. You can get the 450, but you will figure out what you are most comfortable with as you go.

Yes, check the tires carefully. Check the pressure regularly. Check the lug nuts to be sure they are tight. If the wheels were off, check at 50 miles, 100 miles, and then you can start with checking daily. Have a torque wrench for this.

I use the RV Parky app on my phone to help find free places to stay. It has been very useful.

Drive safely. Remember that the journey is part of the adventure. Relax and get there safely.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 8:09pm
In addition to the above, go weigh your fully loaded rig before the trip. If you look at my recent posts I describe how to do that, put the data in an online calculator, which will tell you how you are loaded relative to your specs and limitations.

Also, I'd recommend getting an IR thermometer, you can use it both to confirm proper trailer brake operation and tire temperatures. They are around 25 to 30$ on Amazon. Check your trailer brakes every morning by stopping the rig using the manual control on your brake controller.

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: Dirt Sifter
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 8:28pm
Welcome :-) 60 - 65 mph top speed, even when you can go faster. Things happen fast with the two vehicles connected to each other. You have to watch behind and around you all the time when traveling 15+ mph slower than the other traffic and it is tiring.
    My DW (dear wife) calls it a day around 350 miles. She does not drive, but can only sit for so long unless there's a good reason to go further.
    You will be stopping more often for gas on the freeway. Two lanes are not usually as hard on gas, but still cut your mpg's. The non-freeways are less stressful, but with your goal of picking up and bringing the new TT home, understandable that you don't have the time to waste.
    We are fans of the Equalizer 4 hitches properly set up for wind/sway control. We were on I-15 in Idaho when strong head winds cut our top speed to 50-55 mph at 5000 rpm. We got off the highway and put it up for the day.
    The DW likes to have 2 days in one spot every 4 days or so just to take a break. Have fun!


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Greg n Deb 2020 195 HRE
'07 Tundra 5.7L., '17 Tacoma 3.5L. Both with tow packages
1 Puggle, 1 Chihuahua support staff


Posted By: Pod People
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 9:57pm
As retirees, we do most of our traveling in multi-week time frames. We have found that ideally, stop every 3-4 days for 2 nights at the same place for grocery, laundry and other domestic chores.  Plus, just relax and recuperate if you have the time.
Agree that the journey is just as important as the destination in most cases.
We have found (in most cases) that campsites are available Sunday night thru Thursday nights pretty easily.  We can travel then and stay for one nighters and move on if that is the plan.  We try to stay Friday/Saturday in the same place if possible with reservations or arrive early Friday morning for "First come, first Serve" sites.
After a couple of trips, you will learn what works for you and will develop a rhythm. that's part of the appeal.
Travel safe
Vann


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Vann & Laura 2015 RPod 179
https://postimg.cc/0zwKrfB9">


Posted By: Idahoan
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 10:29pm
Thanks! We're not traveling for fun this trip. Just getting the R-pod home, so we're not staying over anywhere for longer than a night. Looking forward to longer trips in the future when we can stay a while and enjoy ourselves!

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LTheo
2018 179
2014 Toyota Tundra


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 10:31pm
More than about 400 miles in a day is exhausting towing a travel trailer. It's not like driving and staying in hotels. You are driving slower, the driving is more demanding, about double the fuel stops, and then you have to set up camp,either cook and wash dishes or unhitch to go find a restaurant. Then repeat.

If you're accustomed to auto/motel travel I'd subtract about 150 to 200 miles from your daily distance target. No one tows a travel trailer to get sonewhere quick.

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: Idahoan
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 10:44pm
Good advice, Offgrid, and this is what I was thinking and why I asked! The 450 miles per day is my husband's idea, but honestly, I'm more inclined to take our time a bit and play it by ear. Everybody's different as far as what they can tolerate in driving, and both of us can drive several long days without much trouble---when we're not towing an RV! He is a safe driver and so am I, and the more research we do, the more we both understand that safety is the first concern when towing an RV. So slow and steady will win!

One of the great things about these apps for finding campsites is that we CAN play it by ear and don't have to sweat booking a site every night, since we won't really know how far we'll get. And another great thing is getting advice from folks who know a lot more than we do! Grateful for your thoughts.


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LTheo
2018 179
2014 Toyota Tundra


Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 11:32pm
How far you go in a day is a very personal thing.  My wife won't drive with the trailer hooked up, but I routinely go 500 to 600 miles in a day if we're trying to get to a destination. I'm not bragging at all -- just saying what works for one person doesn't mean everyone has the same limits.

The trailer does really slow things down. A 600 mile day can mean 14 hours on the road (with time off for pit stops, gas, lunch, etc.)

TT


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2010 176
FJ Cruiser


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 11:40pm
Yes, travel at a relaxed pace and guess what, you will arrive at your stop at the end of the day....relaxed.

At every fuel stop and every meal stop I always walk around the rig and check the temps...feel all the tires and hubs with the palm of my hand, and feel the brake drums with the back of my hand, and if tires, brakes, and hubs are warm (not overly hot), you are good for another few hundred miles. Then check again, repeat many times each day. Soon you will get a feel for the normal temps. 

Of course, at every fuel stop, check your tow vehicle's oil level, visually check the coolant reservoir, etc, and visually check trailer lights, wiggle the safety chains, observe bolts and fasteners on and around the hitch area, etc. You can do some of this at the pump, or pull off to the side before you leave, maybe after you grab a roller dog, a bag of chips, and a 44 OZ Pepsi for the road!

This all might seem off-topic but it relates to the reason for slowing down and taking your time...its not a cross country race.

BTW...Just kidding about the Pepsi...

Tongue


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 8:56am
After a 10 hour trip turned into a 16 hour trip(before R-Pod days) followed a week later by a stroke, I do not do extended driving unless there is no other choice. I'm on an anticoagulant now to help prevent another stroke. We can by no means do the extended driving. If we cover 300 miles in a day, we count it good. We can do more, but no 500 to 600 miles. As has been said, you will learn what works for you. 

-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 9:14am
Yikes! a 44 oz Pepsi for the road?  Shoot, with all that caffeine and sugar, I'd be a nervous wreck and wouldn't make it 50 miles before needing the first of several pee stops.  The hotdog sounds good, though.  Approve

We usually drive between 55 and 60 (I really mean I drive, since my wife doesn't) and I don't find it especially stressful.  Our virgin trip with our F-150 was from Las Vegas to home, a distance of about 400 miles, in high winds all the way and a mix of rain, ice, and snow for the last 1/3rd of the drive.  Though it was a bit tedious, I arrived home without being especially tired.  

Most of the time it's quite comfortable driving, even in the desert winds we often encounter.  I personally think that driving with a well balanced rig with adequate power and weight capacity is the key.  Driving on the edge of the weight capacity of your TV and with inadequate power makes it very stressful.  We were much closer to the TV capacity and power limits when we towed our 172 with our Dakota.  It was much more tiring to take long trips.   

We're leaving around the 1st of May to go to NY and are tentatively planning on 5 nights on the way.  I guess one of the nice things about traveling with your own hotel room in tow is that if you find that you don't want to go as far as you planned, you can always stop earlier along the way.  We'll see how it goes.

With all the folks who have gotten their vaccines coming out of their isolation, I suspect there will be traffic jams with cars and trucks with travel trailers in tow in the middle of Nowhere.


-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: EchoGale
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 10:24am
When driving without the pod I go from Jacksonville Fl to Bath, Maine in two22 hour days (about 750 miles and 500 miles each varying due to traffic in the NE) by myself, so I'm good with long days.  With the pod I don't go over 60 mph (tires are rated for 65 max) and I keep it between 250-300 miles per day. As the days wear on get tired quicker and I try to be always cognizant that a 7-8 hour day can become a 10 hour day with traffic or some other delay.

I do try to have food prepared and gear stowed in such a way that there is minimal work once I stop so I find this much easier than a hotel. No checking in, acclimate the dog, carrying stuff or sleeping in a strange bed.

One of the best things about the free camping website is you don't need reservations so you can drive until you are tired and then stop because everyone is right, you'll find your own pace. I think it's best not to push.

Welcome to the forum. There's lifetimes of learning here. :)


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Julie


Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 10:31am
Went > 10,000 miles towing the 195 last year.

60-65mph and 350 miles with arrival timed to be in daylight seems to be the sweet spot.

Best drives were on good two- and four-lane state highways...less stress than interstate driving.  YMMV.


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2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River
2018 RAM 2500 6.4L


Posted By: EchoGale
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 10:40am
+1 to Pod Geek. Many of us have noted in the past that while the state highways seem like they'll take longer, if you are slowing to the recommended 60-65 in practice they don't. 

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Julie


Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 11:35am
Originally posted by StephenH

After a 10 hour trip turned into a 16 hour trip(before R-Pod days) followed a week later by a stroke, I do not do extended driving unless there is no other choice. I'm on an anticoagulant now to help prevent another stroke. We can by no means do the extended driving. If we cover 300 miles in a day, we count it good. We can do more, but no 500 to 600 miles. As has been said, you will learn what works for you. 
This isn't a competition and there are no excuses needed.  I just wanted to make the point that there is a wider range of possibilities than those to which one person may limit themselves.

I'm old enough to retire but haven't yet, so I have a limited amount of time for vacations.  It's really hard to get two weeks off at once.  So if I want to go to Cape Breton (from Nashville), and I want to spend as much time as possible in Cape Breton, I feel like I need to put in long days on the road.  For me, it's worth it.  Maybe not wise, but it's how I want to do it.  Same with the Nashville to the Outer Banks trip.  I get as far down the road the first day as I can so that we can get to our campsite in Frisco early the second day.  We usually stop overnight somewhere in or around Wake Forest, coincidentally.

There are certainly other legitimate and more leisurely ways to travel.  Maybe when I retire and can take a trip that can be 2, or 3, or 4 weeks long I'll slow down and smell the roses along the way.  I have done several trips out west and in Mexico and Canada, sans Pod, with no grand destination.  We've followed our noses and had plenty of less than 200 mile days.  I like that kind of trip a lot too.  By "no destination" I mean we don't head out with an end point in mind. where we stay and from which we'll turn around and come back.  There are always a lot of sort of mini-destinations along the way.

TT


-------------
2010 176
FJ Cruiser


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 11:46am
In California the max for trailer-towing vehicles is the double nickel (AKA 55 MPH). That said, 60 MPH is our top speed. That's partly for fuel economy, partly for safety, and not necessarily in that order. If we get 400 miles in a day, we're good, but that's a long day.

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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 1:52pm
In VA trailers and trucks have the same speed limit as cars, typically 70. The trucks are usually running at 75 and the cars at 80 here on rural I81. It might feel intimidating at first but I keep to 65 or just below while towing, they just have to go around.

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 7:16pm
When we were in Wyoming on I80 and hit the ice, the trooper asked how fast I was going. I told him 60 mph. Turns out that is the legal towing speed there. If I had been going the 80 MPH that the big rigs were going, I would likely have been cited. Instead, since I was towing the legal speed, the accident was written up as "unavoidable."

It is something not widely known that not all states allow towing at the same speed as when not towing. For the most part, I don't see many RVs pulled over for speeding. However, it is prudent to be aware of, and comply with the towing speed limits just in case something happens.


-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by StephenH

Instead, since I was towing the legal speed, the accident was written up as "unavoidable."


Accident? 

Shocked


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: PilotPodder
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 7:34am
I own a 179. Sounds like you are buying one out of state. Make sure your black tank hanger is secure before you hit the road. Several people on the forum have had the same issue I have had with the hanger failing when traveling. I would bring some wire with me to reinforce the hanger for the trip home, then fix it properly when home.  

After several "escape the winter" roundtrips MI to FL and back, here are my takes: Optimal speed is right about 60 mph. With occasional rest stops and a lunch break, about 300-350 miles a day works well for me. As mentioned by others, there is a cumulative effect of towing fatigue. I've found that if I take miles I want to drive and divide by 45 that will yield about the right time needed to get there. So 350 miles will take just under 8 hrs. in the truck. If I'm doing more than a few days in a row, I need an extra day's rest before I take off again. A tire pressure monitor system (TPMS) to me is pretty much essential equipment. I've used the EEZ TPMS for several years now and it has been excellent. Do a full walk around your rig and TV at every rest stop. All the best and congrats!

-------------
Portage, MI — 2017 RPod 179 - sold / 2017 Toyota Tundra — https://johnmarucci.com/r-pod-video-list/ - My RPod YouTube Videos


Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 8:13am
Originally posted by EchoGale

+1 to Pod Geek. Many of us have noted in the past that while the state highways seem like they'll take longer, if you are slowing to the recommended 60-65 in practice they don't. 

In fact, the estimated travel times on (for example) Google Maps are much more accurate since you'll be going much closer to the posted speed limit.


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2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River
2018 RAM 2500 6.4L


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 8:17am
Originally posted by podwerkz

Originally posted by StephenH

Instead, since I was towing the legal speed, the accident was written up as "unavoidable."


Accident? 

Shocked
See this topic:  http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9133&PID=86002&title=i-wrecked-our-escapod#86002 - I wrecked our escaPod.




-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 9:37am
I went to that thread and kinda scanned thru it......mainly reading your posts....seems like you should name your r-pod, 'Phoenix'...and that trip back home could be called the Flight of the Phoenix.

Pilots know all about 'getthereitis'...and as a truck driver for about 40 years....I'm familiar with it also. 

Glad it turned out ok...Thumbs Up


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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 10:07am
See this topic:  http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9133&PID=86002&title=i-wrecked-our-escapod#86002 - I wrecked our escaPod.

Quite a saga.  Wonder how long repairs would take had this happened these days...


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2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River
2018 RAM 2500 6.4L


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 10:34am
The official aviation term is "continuation bias", a form of cognitive bias to continue with the plan despite changing conditions. It is quite hard for type A personalities to overcome, they have learned to have life success by by being aggressive and willful. As most pilots are in this category (or they wouldn't be able to either afford an airplane or the training, often military) continuation bias is at least a partial cause of the majority of aviation accidents. In my personal flying experience I know its hard to overcome, especially flying IFR where air traffic control expects you to follow the clearance you've been given all the way to the destination and you have to request and be approved for any changes. Now you have both your own gethomeitis and the federal government's (FAA's) dowhatyou'resposedtodoitis to overcome. 

Since there is more awareness/training in this area in aviation than other occupations I'd expect that it is very common cause of over the road accidents and other fields as well. 

I'd hope my surgeon was trained in this area if I was on the table. Would that be called takeitoutnomatter whattitis? LOL


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 10:45am
Getthereitis is so common in the trucking industry that one time I got in trouble because I DIDN'T have a wreck...and the guy who was an hour behind me DID have a wreck on the same stretch of icy road in Ohio. 

The owner of the small fleet of trucks was pissed that his good friend and employee with a LOT more years of experience than I did at the time, jackknifed and put the truck in the ditch, an hour after I had gone thru the same conditions with no trouble at all. At the time it was my first winter season up north as a truck driver. 

My boss said I made his friend 'look bad'....

This same bias affects pilots..."hey that other plane landed OK on the ice with poor braking and a slight tailwind....how bout we try it also?"

Ooops.






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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: Ben Herman
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 11:02am
We tow a 179 with a Lexus GX470 - as far as I know,  pretty much the same V8 and tranny as your rig. You're from the west so you know about mountain driving. We live in Colorado. I would say we average 60. On long, straight stretches (think utah and wyoming) closer to 65 cruising, but try not to go above that. Take our time on hills. If its windy, especially if a headwind,  we notch it down. With a good WDH and  sway control, its pretty darn stable. Really important to keep your speed under control going downhill - make  sure that your brake controller is properly adjusted so that your vehicle brakes arent doing all of the work.

Driving long stretches in the midwest and west is much easier than the east and southeast - less traffic except near cities, and fewer curves. I dont think that 450 is unreasonable under the  right conditions. If you start out early, thats 8 hours driving plus  stops, so maybe 10 hours or so. We  prefer to drive less  and there's always stuff to see. But we're retired and have no schedule - not everyone has that luxury.


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 11:17am
Originally posted by podwerkz

I went to that thread and kinda scanned thru it......mainly reading your posts....seems like you should name your r-pod, 'Phoenix'...and that trip back home could be called the Flight of the Phoenix.

Pilots know all about 'getthereitis'...and as a truck driver for about 40 years....I'm familiar with it also. 

Glad it turned out ok...Thumbs Up

One of the popular sayings is "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there aren't any old-bold pilots."


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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 12:13pm
I've heard that one. 

I had a motorcycle once. I got rid of it before I learned the statistic that there are only two kinds of motorcycle drivers--those who have had an accident and those who are going to have an accident.


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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: podwerkz
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 1:25pm
There are no 'accidents'....only crashes, wrecks, impacts, multi-vehicle crashes, jackknifes, spinouts, unscheduled get-offs, rollovers, highsides, lowsides, CFITs, de-railments, explosions, implosions, and lying upside down in a ditch. Plus many other occurrences that bend metal, break glass, cause damage, injuries, and fatalities.

But there are no such things as 'accidents'.

Thumbs Down




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r・pod 171 gone but not forgotten!


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 8:16am
I have one of those gethomeitis and do what the FAA expects pilot stories. IFR from Cape Cod to Frederick MD in the days when low cost Nexrad was just becoming available in the cockpit. About a 3 hour flight. Filed and was cleared down over JFK, NJ and DE coast, then right turn and on over BWI west toward central md. As we passed into MD we went into solid IMC (instrument meteorological conditions). The area forecast had warned of embedded tstorms so I asked ATC if they were painting any weather. They said no, and no pireps (pilot reports). So on we went Got set up on the approach and ran straight into a level 3 cell. Lost radio contact and didn't want to screw up all the traffic in the busy airspace so I continued the approach, after tightening our seatbelts cause we were banging our heads against the ceiling. Had to hand fly the approach, autopilot wouldn't stay on.

Got on the ground in pouring rain but just rain, we'd passed through the cell. Just sat in the plane for a half hour. Wife said she'd never seen me hand fly an approach that well, indicator needles centered the whole time. When we finally got out the paint was gone off the leading edges of the wings and tail. No hail damage, just from the rain.

Turns out ATC's radars at that time were 20 plus years old and didn't show much weather detail. And ATC has no obligation to report weather anyhow, their responsibility is traffic separation. So I ordered Garmin's satellite Nexrad the next day and that was the last time I ever flew into clouds when embedded tstorms were forecast. The airplane needed new paint anyway...


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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 10:37am
When I tell people I fly IFR, I mean I Follow Roads.



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bp
2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River
2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost


Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 11:16am
Accident in the sense that most of them are not intentional which is the opposite. The event can vary, but nobody intends to have one of them, thus accident is appropriate. It is also the common use.

-------------
StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...

http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS


Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by StephenH

Accident in the sense that most of them are not intentional which is the opposite. The event can vary, but nobody intends to have one of them, thus accident is appropriate. It is also the common use.

Times they are a changin'...

How powerful is one word? Traffic safety activists are among those who believe words influence people in tremendous ways. Because of this belief, several advocacy groups are fighting to have the word "crash" replace "accident" when referring to automobile collisions.

Many people believe that saying "accident" makes it wrongly appear as though crashes are inevitable rather than preventable. In truth, the majority of auto fatalities and injuries could be prevented if it were not for drunk driving, distracted driving, poor road conditions, speeding or negligence by one of the drivers....

https://www.sidgilreath.com/learn/car-crash-replace-accident.html

Search "crash vs accident" and you'll find many hits just like this one.


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2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River
2018 RAM 2500 6.4L


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 1:22pm
Accident, as StephenH points out, are events that lack a specific intent to bring about the event causing injury or damage.  But, as Pod_Geek points out, the word accident covers quite a spectrum of conduct.  It ranges from practically intentional, in that the conduct leading to the "accident" was intentional and constituted a willful and wanton disregard for the safety of others -- such as driving 100 mph through a school zone when children are crossing the street -- to that which is beyond the control of anyone and is often referred to in the legal biz as an act of God, or in lay terms, s**t happens.  

Most "accidents" involve some level of carelessness or negligence in the root cause, but lack an intent to result in some injury.  Some levels of carelessness or negligence can be criminally sanctioned, while on the other extreme of the spectrum, some result only in the obligation to compensate the injured party who suffered a loss due to someone's negligence.  Finally, at the far end of the spectrum are events that one cannot anticipate that result in injuries, such a boulder being shaken loose by an earth quake and rolling down a hill, crushing your rPod as you tow it along the road well within the speed limit.  It was not caused by anyone's carelessness in acting or failing to act.  It is simply a matter of s**t happens.

We all consider the context of the event when we use the term "accident" and are not really confused by it.  It's hardly worth the bother to worry about using another more PC term in its place.



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Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: Pod_Geek
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by lostagain

...It's hardly worth the bother to worry about using another more PC term in its place.


As is pointed out by many of the individuals/entities that are advocating the use of "crash" instead of "accident", words have meaning.  The term "accident" implies to many people that the event was no one's fault.  In many (most?) cases this is simply not true.

That ain't "PC" in my book.  It's more an acknowledgement of reality.


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2020.5 R-Pod 195 Hood River
2018 RAM 2500 6.4L


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 2:40pm
Even the term "crash" has to be contextualized to have meaning.  StephenH's crash/accident was completely beyond his control caused through no lack of due care on his part.  A crash/accident involving a drunken driver, on the other hand, is an utterly avoidable tragedy.  The term "crash" doesn't differentiate these any better than the common usage of "accident."  Bottom line, use what you like and see how its meaning is interpreted.

-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 4:40pm
Accident:

an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.


In aviation, road, and industrial safety the modern approach is to view these events as the end result of a sequence of decisions and behaviors any one of which could have been changed and resulted in a different outcome.

So there indeed are very few true accidents, as podwerkz and podgeek rightly argue. This is not pc gibberish either, we are not powerless to prevent these events and they are not unexpected, nor are they unintentional since there are well understood behaviors that can be changed.

Just consider how many near misses there are for every OSHA reportable injury or how many close calls there are on the road for every crash. Those near misses are squandered learning opportunities, and when someone is injured or killed you can't simply shrug your shoulders and say there's nothing to be done. If you are the manager and one of your employees gets injured or you are the driver and someone in your or another vehicle gets injured you are responsible. Period. Because it is an intentional act to engage in or tolerate unsafe behaviors.

We at one point acquired a solar integrator with a great sales capability but they were abysmal installers. I had multiple crews of workers installing solar on roofs who among many other behaviors were not using proper fall protection. It's a PITA at first to work on a roof in harness if you've ever done it. There was also a lot of macho bs involved, real men don't wear fall protection. Unfortunately pretty common attitudes in the construction trades.

When you dug into it every single person on the crews had experienced at least one close call. They just didn't think about what those close calls were trying to teach them, even after a couple serious fall injuries had occurred. There was nothing at all accidental about those injuries, they were statically predictable with high confidence and caused by intentional behaviors.

It was very difficult to change those ingrained unsafe behaviors and not everyone made the journey. Some folks left on their own and some were fired. It required intense management commitment.

It's always management at fault, never the workers' fault. That's not bs either btw. You have to prove it when you say your employees' safety is more important than profit because they of course won't believe you. You can't tolerate unsafe attitudes and behaviors, even subtle ones because that is a test of your level of commitment.

In the end the crew members looked out for each other and the reportable fall injury rate dropped to zero. We began tracking near misses which is really a much better metric because if done well it gives you insight in advance into what unsafe behaviors remain or develop that are about to hurt or kill someone.

When you drive your personal rig you are your own manager so are 100% responsible for what happens.You can choose to learn from your own and others' close calls and not so safe behaviors and make changes or not, it's up to you.

stephenH for one has clearly learned from his experiences, he no longer runs a marginal tow vehicle and has the most complete anti sway setup of anyone on this forum. Belt and suspenders and another belt, it's impressive.

This is why it gripes me when for example I see things ike runnng a mid sized rpod behind a light tow vehicle without knowing your actual weights. That is an example of an unsafe behavior, it's wishful thinking and if an "accident" were to result due to being unable to control the rig it would be entirely predictable and avoidable.

Sorry for the rant but as the former manager of construction crews where people were getting injured on my watch I had to suck it up and can't just be quiet now when I see unsafe behaviors, including from fellow forum members. That makes me a PITA sometimes but I can easily live with that compared to the alternative. I know what that feels like too and it's not a good feeling at all.







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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 6:14pm
+1 Bravo offgrid.  I may humbly be able to say i have experienced more "accidents" involving deer than anyone else on this forum.  As of two years ago when I retired, the last truck i was driving (94 F-150 4x 5.0L V-8, 322,000 miles) was involved in 31 deer kills and over 100 hits over a period of 21 years, just for that truck alone.  Not including the previous kills/hits before that particular vehicle.  Fortunately the truck never got hurt enough to be considered totaled although it did carry a nasty smashed in driver side rear quarter panel that wasn't pretty.  What could I do to prevent these from happening?  Drive slow?  I got to the point of traveling at only 35 mph at 5 am when going to work, that didn't help either.  Tried riding my bicycle to work, a short 5 mile trip.  That was almost a disaster the 2nd time I did that as a large doe came within a couple feet of me and I was only traveling 19 mph.  At least I was safer in the cab of the truck.  Since retiring there have been numerous 'close calls.'  The only redeeming factor in all this is no longer am I traveling at 5 in the morning but again, many of these accidents happened at mid day and late afternoon, very few happened in the evening.  So maybe only travel at night?


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God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: Dirt Sifter
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 8:09pm
Jato, I think you must hold the record for the number of deer hit with your vehicle. I've creamed a number much, much smaller and felt all of them were accidental on my part. Perhaps it is a lapse of judgement as my immediate supervisor claimed (but was over ridden by the next level) when one of my troopers hit his third deer in twelve months. My supervisor challenged my calling it unavoidable because he said the trooper was traveling ten mph over the designated speed limit without justifiable need, in his opinion. My response was that it was a justifiable speed and further if he'd been traveling twenty mph over he would have been clear of the area where the deer jumped the guard rail before it was there. Accidents are accidents, crashes are crashes, each determined on their own merits. But I wouldn't want to be your insurance carrier.Star


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Greg n Deb 2020 195 HRE
'07 Tundra 5.7L., '17 Tacoma 3.5L. Both with tow packages
1 Puggle, 1 Chihuahua support staff


Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 11:06pm
There are often accidents, or whatever you want to call them, that are avoidable, but I've hit a couple of deer and I swear, one of them was unavoidable on my part.  The deer could have easily avoided it, it jumped in front of me from out of nowhere and hit me (sic) within a second of first coming in sight.  I wasn't speeding.

All that said, I generally agree with Offgrid that many, many, "accidents" can be prevented through education, training, good judgement, etc.  I don't mean to exclude myself; I just haven't figured out 25  years later what I could have reasonably done differently with that deer.  It was really like the deer decided to commit suicide and pulled it off without a flaw.

TT


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2010 176
FJ Cruiser


Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2021 at 1:42am
As I stated above, "Most "accidents" involve some level of carelessness or negligence in the root cause, but lack an intent to result in some injury."  It appears that we all agree on that point.  Most accidents, or crashes, occur because someone didn't use reasonable care to avoid it, whether driving too fast, failing to pay attention, not anticipating the dangers, and so on.  

The point is that an "accident, "crash," "mishap," "misadventure," and so on, are all believed to be sudden events that result in some injury or damage and that occurred without anyone's direct intention.  There are many terms that one can use to describe this kind of sudden unintentional event, some implying blame and others emphasizing the unpredictable and unintentional aspect of the situation.  

It's really a semantic issue and depends on the user's desire to either blame or excuse the conduct of the actor involved in the event.  Since it's a semantic issue, the choice of words used to describe it necessarily depends on the point of view of the person judging the conduct and selecting the word to describe it.  

There is a danger in using words to describe preventable injury producing events as though they are beyond human control, implying that the conduct of the person causing the injury or damage is excusable.  In that respect, we have developed over a few hundred years terms that differentiate between levels of lack of due care and sanction them differently.  We treat extreme indifference to safety as almost intentional conduct, i.e. willful and wanton conduct, and allow criminal punishment of the actor.  We treat gross negligence as worse than minor carelessness and allow punitive damages to be awarded in a civil court, in addition to compensatory damages.  Further, our tolerance for intemperate conduct has evolved.  We used to treat, for example, an "accident" involving drunk driving as relatively minor form of carelessness and have now elevated it to a serious criminal offense. 

In the last analysis, we each have to take responsibility for our conduct and its consequences.  




-------------
Never leave footprints behind.
Fred & Maria Kearney
Sonoma 167RB
Our Pod 172
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost


Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2021 at 5:39am
Originally posted by Dirt Sifter

Accidents are accidents, crashes are crashes, each determined on their own merits. But I wouldn't want to be your insurance carrier.Star


Fortunately, for both the company and the insurance carrier, none of the accidents or hits were ever turned in to the insurance carrier.  Fortunately the majority of the accidents were toward the front of the truck which had a substantial bumper and sat up rather high.

With my current vehicles I am quite certain there would be substantial damage were another 'encounter' to take place, even with the 2017 F-150 as its stock front bumper is pretty chincey.


-------------
God's pod
'11 model 177
'17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost
Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake
"...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free."


Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2021 at 6:50am
Jato, sounds like your area like many others is severely overpopulated with deer. By some measures there are now 100x as many white tails in the eastern us than there were 100 years ago, when there was concern that the species might go extinct. No predators, less hunters, and the spread of suburbia (deer thrive in areas of mixed woods and cleared land) have caused a real problem. They destroy native forest plants, wreak havoc on the ecosystem, destroy crops and gardens, and spread Lyme disease. Generally they don't die off from starvation either, just expand their population till they're always on the verge of starvation and can't expand it any more. Not to mention. The 150 or so ppl who get killed every year hitting them. It's not uncommon to look out my window in the early evening and see 15 or so in a couple groups.

We try to avoid travelling in late afternoon/evening and early morning, drive slowly especially in areas where deer tend to congregate, and stop when we see one ahead because there are usually a couple more right behind them.

-------------
1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold



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