Is my WFCO converter/charger killing my batteries?
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Topic: Is my WFCO converter/charger killing my batteries?
Posted By: Welchsoft
Subject: Is my WFCO converter/charger killing my batteries?
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2021 at 2:44pm
I may not actually have a problem but want to get some feedback since at the beginning of the season upgraded to duel V6 Trojan 105 batteries and want to protect my investment. Trojan charging instructions indicate charge voltage setting should be Absorption 14.8, Float 13.2 and Equalize 15.5. My WFCO 8735P Converter manual indicates Absorption 13.6, Float 13.2 and nothing about Equalize, although it mentions Bulk 14.4. Since my converter is never putting 14.8 volts to my charging cycle is my converter/charge properly maintaining my Trojan batteries, or should I take some preemptive measures? - - - - https://www.facebook.com/groups/294323247783165/user/100006547903389/?__cft__%5b0%5d=AZWacRQyCSbNAL9_uD5SnRE8-RctN08UUemAzNl4AJzuX6AqkB4QCpEtdazhR_POZY_Ft6l6YKWkyP0XqD3VCwXk-M_Qi5WXXaKF5cZDVuY-fZrdAwoqAiOz1zDOkH8vvLi9k6a6Q7wb10FVFFyC0QbD&__tn__=%3C%2CP-R - https://www.facebook.com/groups/294323247783165/user/100006547903389/?__cft__%5b0%5d=AZWacRQyCSbNAL9_uD5SnRE8-RctN08UUemAzNl4AJzuX6AqkB4QCpEtdazhR_POZY_Ft6l6YKWkyP0XqD3VCwXk-M_Qi5WXXaKF5cZDVuY-fZrdAwoqAiOz1zDOkH8vvLi9k6a6Q7wb10FVFFyC0QbD&__tn__=%3C%3C%2CP-R - - - https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.30497-1/cp0/p40x40/143086968_2856368904622192_1959732218791162458_n.png?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=7206a8&_nc_ohc=VdpPN8FSR2cAX8Pj9XG&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=e7949970b8b45a785b947b6e2cd28133&oe=615D12A3 - |
Replies:
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2021 at 3:21pm
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WFCO converter will work with the Trojan batteries just fine. The only time you would have issues is if you fail to check the water level and add distilled water as needed. We used a pair of 6V GC2 batteries for a few years but I wanted to change to an LiFePO4 battery. That required a change to a different converter module suitable for it.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...
http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2021 at 4:49pm
You should be ok. If you wanted to hit your batteries with a 15.5V
equalization charge occasionally you could do that with another charger, but that is a really high voltage and not normally needed unless you have left the batteries at partial state of charge for long periods, which allows sulfation of the plates. The high voltage blows the sulphate off.
You can get the WFCO to go into absorption mode if you shut it off and then bring it back up which should accomplish the equalization for most usage.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 4:58am
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The part that confuses/concerns me is the 14.8V that Trojan recommends. My charger doesn't put that out.
Also seems that if I want to equalize I will need a stand alone charger, as even some of the Progressive Dynamics that I look at don't equalize at 15.5.
Thanks for the input.
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Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 8:28am
I wouldn't be concerned with equalization. If they were 12V running in parallel, then it might be an issue. Since they are 6V run in series, equalization is not the issue you think it is. Just think of it as one 12V battery. You don't worry about equalization with your tow vehicle's 12V battery. Don't worry about it with the Trojans, provided you keep track and don't discharge them below 50% and don't leave them discharged. If you can't leave the RPod plugged in, charge them and then use a battery disconnect (connected on the positive side) or disconnect the battery by removing the negative terminal leading to the RPod. Periodically check and charge if needed.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...
http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by StephenH
I wouldn't be concerned with equalization. If they were 12V running in parallel, then it might be an issue. Since they are 6V run in series, equalization is not the issue you think it is. Just think of it as one 12V battery. You don't worry about equalization with your tow vehicle's 12V battery. Don't worry about it with the Trojans, provided you keep track and don't discharge them below 50% and don't leave them discharged. If you can't leave the RPod plugged in, charge them and then use a battery disconnect (connected on the positive side) or disconnect the battery by removing the negative terminal leading to the RPod. Periodically check and charge if needed. |
This is not quite correct. The reason the Trojans want a higher charge voltage and occasional equalization is because they are not the same chemistry as automotive batteries. The deep cycle golf cart batteries use antimony as a lead alloy which allows them to tolerate deeper and more frequent discharges but at the expense of higher water consumption, higher charge voltage, and higher equalization requirements than auto start, lights and ignition (SLI) atteries.
So you could either consider getting a separate charger to equalize the Tojans occasionally, or "trick" the WFCO into spending more time at higher charge voltage by turning it off and back on occasionally. This is not an exact science but depends on frequency and depth of discharge as well as temperature and charge rates. Trojan is being very precise in their requirements for warranty purposes.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 7:20pm
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The challenge for me at this point is to find a technical solution. I assume that tricking the WFCO will still only produce 14.2V. I just want to purchase the solution that will charge my T105 correctly to maintain them based on the manufactures recommendations. I appreciate the feedback about what will work 'fine' but I want to be 'optimal'. Not that I'm not concerned about cost, but I'd like to understand the best solution and then weigh the cost. Thanks everyone.
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2021 at 9:07pm
Understood. In that case you might want to consider getting a DC power supply which would allow you to adjust voltage and current levels manually to the values you want, in this case as prescribed by Trojan. The benefit of the adjustable power supply is that you could set it for batteries with different requirements in the future, or even for others uses. You could eave your batteries on the WFCO on a day to day basis, but use the power supply at intervals per your or Trojan's specs.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2021 at 5:58am
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Or pull the charger module from my wfco 8735 and replace it with something 'smart' that meets the Trojan guidelines. I've been researching but its becoming difficult to find on for my particular unit. In addition, I'm wondering if a stand alone unit closer to the battery might be a better option since the wires 20 feet away from the battery to the charger look like #6. I have not measured the current from the charger to the battery but imagine that with the long run of smaller cable there is quite a bit of resistance.
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2021 at 11:29am
Yes I think the conductors are 6 awg. At 40A and 15 ft that's about 0.6V drop, or about 5%. Pretty typical for 12V systems But don't forget that the charge current tapers off quickly as battery voltage increases and the cells teach full charge.
If you really want to do this precisely, you can get a charger with voltage sense wires and a remote temp sensor which can accurately measure voltage and tenp directly at the battery terminals and compensate accordingly. That is commonly done on large battery systems (for example large off grid solar applications) where there is a big capital investment and battery warranties to maintain. But IMHO you are overengineeing for a little 200 amp hour battery system.
Even in the Trojan maintenance manual it suggests getting chargers without equalization modes to perform the high voltage charge function by turning them off and back on.
An inexpensive way to evaluate if you need to and how well you are equalizing is to get a hydrometer and check the electrolyte specific gravity at the top of the cells. If a deep cycle battery needs equalizing its cells will have their electrolyte stratify and have lower and variable SG at the top of the cells. Jus hit them with any charger or power supply and let the gasses mix the electrolyte until the SG's are the same in all the cells. Equalization done.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2021 at 12:12pm
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Me overengineer? Software Architect by trade before I retired and that's why. Thanks for the help.
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Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2021 at 12:48pm
If you are traveling with your 'Pod and not letting it sit unused for months, I don't think stratification will be so much an issue as the mechanical agitation of going down the road is going to help mix the electrolyte. We travel with our 'Pod. That is one reason I did not think it would be so much an issue.
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StephenH
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,...
http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods
Former RPod 179
Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2021 at 1:08pm
I'm a retired engineer too so I know about overengineering. But with electrochemical stuff like batteries the complexities make it fuzzy enough that its a bit more of an art than a science relative to say electrical or software engineering.
I think its important to recognize that deep cycle lead-antimony batteries are not for everyone. SLI auto batteries generally use a lead calcium alloy which results in lower self discharge and charging rates and would probably be a better choice if you let your pod sit for long periods.
As an example, I have a car here at my Dad's house in Hawaii that due to Covid travel restrictions I was not able to run for two years. I'd left the battery in the car disconnected and uncharged for that period, connected it and it started right up and its run and starts the car just fine. That would definitely not be the case with golf cart deep cycle batteries. They would be dead as a door nail.
So if you need batteries that will tolerate a lot of cycling and either use your pod often or are willing to do the charge, watering, and equalization maintenance, then deep cycle GC batteries are for you. If you mostly camp with hookups and/or use your pod I intermittently and/or aren't much for battery maintence then get SLI or AGM batteries. If you want the best of both worlds then bite the cost bullet and convery to Li batteries, where there are a bunch of different types available as well. Different chemistries for different applications.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2021 at 1:26pm
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This entire research started when boondocking (no sun for my solar) and figured a 2250 watt generator could charge up my batteries. But the state park I was in only allowed two, 2 hours cycles of generator noise per day and on the first day we were running wild with electricity so my batteries got town to 50%. The next day being more conservative, 40% so I fired up the generator and in two shifts of 1 hour then 2 hour generation I was only up to 50+% again. Starting researching why un uneducated assumption on charging my Trojans was inaccurate. Concluded that my WFCO charger on the generator never put out the volts to quickly charge so I started looking at new converters/chargers. That got me thinking about IF I was charging my Trojans correctly in the first place. In any even, that all led to this tread. I still need to research the quickest way to charge up on generator and if a smart converter/charger, a stand alone charger or something would be helpful. We have not been at this for long but some periods of the year will we be camping with hook ups, but the majority of the time we focus on State Parks which seem to have electricity about 50% of the time.
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2021 at 5:30pm
Something's not right with your charging and/or you're using a huge amount of electricity, or your state of charge is higher than you think.
The WFCO should be producing 40A or so until battery voltage gets pretty high, so in 4 hours you should be getting close to full charge even if you started at a low SOC.
How are you determining state of charge? Don't use the idiot lights, use a multimeter, leave the battery disconnect for an hour or so and use an SOC vs voltage table. Get a meter with a Hall Effect DC clamp on so you can measure your actual charge current as well.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2021 at 6:05am
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I have a GoPower Solar Controller which shows the amount of charge in volts, and I have a Aili Voltmeter which shows volts/amps in and out and has a 100amp shunt at the battery. The two instruments are quite close on their readings of current state of charge.
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2021 at 2:21pm
That's great! What current do you read on the shunt when you're charging at sat 40-50% SOC with all your loads off. Shut the WFCO off and back on and under those conditions it should be around 40A.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2021 at 5:14am
I will check that.
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 7:16am
Starting my testing with a voltmeter to check actual charge current leaving the charger, and then going to the cables on the battery (while disconnected). I'm expecting to see 14.4 volts when charging in bulk mode but just read this in the WFCO manual and I think that it says that I will never se 14.4 even if it is putting that out. Confused..."If the output current reaches its maximum (normally caused by a discharged battery), this will cause the converter to go into Bulk Mode, which means the target output voltage will change to 14.4 VDC and a timer will start. Although the converter is outputting 14.4 VDC, you will not be able to read that on a voltmeter due to the voltage-current relationship. From the paragraph above, as load current increases, output voltage decreases. The actual output voltage will not rise until the load current is reduced, which happens naturally as the battery charges or if 12 VDC appliances are turned off." |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2021 at 6:02pm
What they should say is that in their bulk mode their charger can supply 14.4V open circuit (no current). But if the battery is deeply discharged then it will take the max current the charge puts our (I think that's 55A, not sure) at a lower voltage than 14.4. Once the charger hits it's current limit the voltage won't go any higher of course, because it can't produce enough current to do so. So the right way to look at bulk mode is the charger can produce up to 14.4 of 55A, whichever comes first.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 7:30am
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Sorry not an EE person so I may not completely understand but that's ok. So my converter/charger unit is 35A. If my battery is down to about 50% I may never see 14.4 but something (some equasion..) lower because that's all the unit can push out at 35 amps?
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 7:31am
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And if I'm correct, can I just replace the converter/charger with something at a higher amperage, like 55 or 65A?
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Welchsoft
Sorry not an EE person so I may not completely understand but that's ok. So my converter/charger unit is 35A. If my battery is down to about 50% I may never see 14.4 but something (some equasion..) lower because that's all the unit can push out at 35 amps? |
Yes, you have that right. But I think the rating on the converter is higher than 35A. Mine was.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2021 at 7:48am
Originally posted by Welchsoft
And if I'm correct, can I just replace the converter/charger with something at a higher amperage, like 55 or 65A? |
In theory yes but in practice you need to be sure the cables and fuses can handle the additional current first. You would want a minimum of 6 gauge for 55A and 4 gauge for 65A. Also you'd need to confirm the 120Vac supply wiring and circuit breaker can handle the higher input current load of the larger converter (they most likely can). Look in the converter manual for that requirement.
Finally, the conversion process creates heat which has to be removed from the enclosure where the converter is located. The larger converter will produce more heat. So you'd need to be sure the bigger converter fits and also measure some operating temperatures and possibly add better ventilation or a cooling fan.
IOW, like most things in life if you make one change there is a ripple effect that has to be dealt with.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 3:37pm
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Over the last three days I've been running a series of tests on my WFCO 8735P. With my factory installed WFCO 35a converter charger this is what I learned. I removed the solar and inverter from the battery and only connected #8 wires from the converter to the battery. I ran down my two 6v Trojan T-105's by running everything I could find on 12v in the camper. This created a draw of 6.17a which I paused at times but ran over a three day period. From 100% SOC to 60.8% it took approximately 13 continuous hours at 6.17a. Note that the 60.8% value was measured on my battery monitor which measured 12.4 volts, but according to Trojan's documentation this voltage is closer to 70%. My hydrometer read between 1225-1250 on all cells. I plugged in the camper to AC and turned on the converter/charger. Voltage at the charger was 13.1v and at the battery 12.9. I repeated readings every hour for three hours. Amps measured by my battery monitor were 7.6 at start and three hours later 5.8. In three hours my converter charger brought the battery from 60.8 to 64.4v. I turned off the shore power and plugged in my 2200w generator with the same results and never exceeding 12.9 volts of 5.8 amps. Any thoughts on if these numbers represents a problem?
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 6:37pm
Only 6A load with everything turned on? That doesn't sound right. Seems low. Try turning the fridge on in 12V mode and see how much current that takes. Should be around 11-12A. If it's much less then maybe your battery current monitor needs to be recalibrated. Or, if you have a DC call on multimeter you could get a second current measurement that way for comparison.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 9:07pm
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Agree and I did not cross check amps with my meter. I did however check volts with my meter and battery monitor which agree at the battery. With the amount that the batteries were drawn down I would expect that even if the charger went to Absorption (not Bulk at 14.4) at 13.6 or Float at 13.2 I would see something higher than 13 at the charger going to the battery.
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Posted By: Rpod-Couple
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 9:24pm
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My 2021 R-pods refrigerator is 120V or propane. It doesn’t have a 12v heater.
The inside LED lights draw 0.33 amps each. I have 7 in my R-pod for total 2.3 amps if all are on. I believe the bathroom fan draws about 2 amps even though fused at 10 amps to handle startup current. The radio is less than 1 amp at moderate sound levels. Carbon monoxide/propane sensor is 0.1 amps. 22” TV is less than 3 amps.
So…you could be up to 8 amps battery draw if all of the items I listed are turned on.
I can imagine if TV is off, you could be around 6 amps.
13 hours x 6.1 amps = 79 amp-hours which sounds to be in the ball park especially if you were running at lower current of say 1 amp over 72 hours in addition to the 79 amp-hours for a total of 151 amp-hours.
By my rough calculations, everything seems to be reasonable.
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Steve & Elaine
2021 R-pod
2023 VW Atlas Cross Sport
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2021 at 10:07pm
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TV was on as was the range top exhaust fan. With nothing running there was about a .25 draw from sensors I would imagine.
Your thinking that the 13v charge would be expected? That is what has me thinking that the WFCO isn't putting out what it should.
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 7:35am
13 or 13.1 sounds like it's in float mode and not going into absorption. Bring the battery SOC down with a heavier load (like the fridge in 12V as I suggested earlier) and when you get to to around 12V or 50% SOC turn on the converter and see if it stays around 13.6V. Leave the loads on when you do that to try to keep it in absorption mode. Measure your battery current before and after turning the WFCO back on.
Not sure if you have an alternate ammeter you can use to check calibration on your battery current monitor. What kind of current measuring device does it use? If a shunt then you can check voltage at the shut itself with a voltmeter. If a Hall Effect donut then try zeroing it. Those are notorious for drifting.
Many folks report not being able to keep the WFCOs in bulk mode so don't be surprised by that.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 8:49am
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Shunt. Fridge only runs on 110 or propane. Thanks, I'll perform another test.
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Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 9:09am
You may have a defective converter. If you can run your generator, a separate charger sounds like a better idea in the short term.
There is usually a fairly wide range of allowable charging voltages, so I wouldn't fret over the difference between 14.6 and 14.8V.
As to equalization, "Trojan only recommends equalizing when low or wide ranging specific gravity (>0.030) are detected after fully charging a battery."
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John
'16 R-Pod 180
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 4:13pm
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Any thoughts on the charger brand/model? I'm also thinking that way to more rapidly charge my batteries on generator when boondocking and no sun for the solar.
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 6:14am
OK so you have one of the bigger 2 way only fridges. In that case just leave the loads you have on for longer before starting the charger. The furnace fan is another load you can add but you'll use up some propane doing that.
I had a WFCO fail the opposite way, charged at 15.5V and never went lower. While there are those on this forum who think we'll if WFCO in my opinion they are not the best.
So if you can't get it to go into absorption mode then I agree, consider getting a new charger. Don't expect it to go into or stay in bulk charge mode for long though.
Folks seem to like Progressive Dynamics and I think they make one that will fit in the current WFCO location. You can look at going to a 55A charger but check your wire ampacities and fuses. Otherwise a second charger connected directly to the batteries might be an easier way to increase charge rate/generator loading. It won't hurt anything running two chargers although you might have trouble pushing as much current into your batteries as you seem to want to (because the chargers will autonatically step down to loser charge rates). Having ajustable output voltage/current would help, so also consider a DC power supply where you have direct control of the output current and voltage limits.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 1:05pm
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After more testing at 50% SOC the best I could get out of the charger was 13.3V. WFCO advised that I could probably never see the bulk 14.4v unless the draw on the battery was about 35A with I believe is just about a dead battery. Their customer support center said that my charger operates on some of the older theories for charge profiles (that is when battery manufactures said that it was ok to drain the battery all the way down.. which is not longer the case). He had me do one additional test. Disconnect the battery and with a +6A load, test the charger output. 12.5 or less is bad, 13.x is good. I got 13.6. WFCO said that the new models, like the wf-8735-pb-lis will also handles lithium has a bulk mode switch that will put out 14.6 for a fixed period of time. So bottom line: the charger is working as expected but not a good charger to maintain my Trojan batteries.
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 5:36am
I've been designing lead acid battery systems for 40+ years and I've never heard of a manufacturer saying it's ok to draw a lead acid battery all the way down. So either thats one really really old theory of operation or that customer service person is blowing smoke as cover for a (shall we say?) less than optimized charger design.
If youre getting around 13.6 that looks like absorption mode is working but as many others report you aren't getting into bulk mode charging, and it's interesting that WFCO is acknowledging that.
The test with the battery disconnected is good information, faster than waiting for a low enough SOC. I wonder if you could do the same test with more load and get bulk mode to kick in?
So while I think most folks find the WFCO to charge their GC deep cycle or other batteries OK I don't think you will ever be satisfied. You are clearly a knowledgeable and attentive user which most folks are not. I suggest you get a charger or power supply with adjustable output voltage (and perefably current) which will give you full control over what it's doing.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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Posted By: Welchsoft
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 10:29am
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Yes arguing with WFCO would quite possibly only get me a $150 replacement unit with the same lack of capability at best. I'm going to focus on a better charger close to the battery and let the WFCO take care of my other 12V needs for now. Lots of good guidance to me in this discussion and I tank you. I could probably ask a hundred of more questions about products but I think that I have the requirements and just need to do more research for products.
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 3:19pm
One other thing, some chargers/power supplies have battery voltage sense lines separate from the current carrying conductors. Using those as the voltage reference eliminates the effect of resistive voltage drop in the the main current carrying conductors so the charger can be placed remotely from the battery without picking up a voltage measurement error. this capability is commonly available in solar charge controllers and in power supplies, not sure how common it is in chargers.
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1994 Chinook Concourse
1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft
2015 Rpod 179 - sold
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