Starting a thread on Electric Vehicles.  I noticed in the post entitled "To buy or not to buy", that Offgrid mentioned that he is on the list to get purchase an F150 Lightning EV.  I also am on that list, although didn't make the 2022 cut and will have to wait until 2023 apparently.

The question that I am sure we all have is battery distance pulling a trailer, such as an R-Pod.  Even though Ford's marketing material has lots of pictures of the F150 Lightning towing a nice Airstream, there is no information on towing distance.  The truck looks like it will tow the R-pod with ease, but as we all know, it takes energy to tow. 

Has anybody able to find some information on this?  Has anybody actually taken delivery of an Electric Truck and towed with it?

There have been several reports on electric vehicle towing, by both "regular" owners, and people who test trucks.. So far, after reading through articles or watching videos, it seems you can expect 50 to 60% range loss, at a minimum. We had an Rpod owner in the FB group last year, tow from Houston to Miami. They were able to average just about 150 miles a day, forward motion. Finding charging spots, and more importantly, USING those charging spots was difficult. NONE are designed for a vehicle with a trailer in tow. Many times, they had to drop the trailer first.

Finding CG's along the route, and also in-line with their route of travel/chargers was difficult also. They had hoped to be able to charge at CG's some, but were either not allowed, or charged extra, and a 50A 120v charge didn't add much range overnight they said.

If I limited my camping to a 120 mile radius or could find 50A 240V hookups every 120 miles the F150 Lightning might be ok. But you would be driving only 2 hours a day. Might as well tow my R-pod with a team of mules. 

No battery will ever beat the energy density of a gallon of gas at 39.5 kWh.

Agreed that the energy density of a gallon of gas or diesel cannot be duplicated with a battery.  However, there are many appealing things about an electric vehicle.  For now, the range is limited, but the electric truck will make an excellent work truck if driving 100 miles, or so, per day.  I own a tree care company, and the thought of being able to charge the fleet overnight for the 50-100 miles they will drive the next day is very appealing, along with the portable power station that the truck is. 

I think we will see an explosion of charging stations along the highways and by-ways over the next few years.  Like it or not, the Federal Government will subsidize it.  It's going to happen.  The technology is there for reliable electric vehicles.  The concept is not new, since some of the very early cars were electric.  Now we have the technology to make it practical.

I am hopeful that the towing range will improve with subsequent models of these trucks.  The portable power station should excite all of us boondockers.

I don't know what the Cannonball run is and I'm sure a Porsche Taycan, whatever that is, can go really fast  And I don't know what the vehicle's range is.  Assuming 5 stops for charging, which is probably low, and 30 minutes per charge, that's 2.5 hours out of 42, so it was moving for 39.5 hours. probably less.  2900 miles in 39.5 hours means it averaged over 73 mph. Possible, but not likely.  Was this on a closed track going around in flat circles?  It wasn't towing an RPod was it?

30-40 minutes for a "fill-up" wouldn't be be my cup of tea,  That 90% of people charge their EVs at home is totally irrelevant to this towing discussion.

I like the concept of EVs, but from what I've seen here, there's only a very limited application for using them as a tow vehicle for an RPod out in the real world.  The F150 Lighting wouldn't work for a single trip I've taken with my pod in the past 10 years.

I think the current administration is deliberately making gasoline and diesel fuel prohibitively expensive with the goal of pushing people into remote-pollution vehicles AKA EVs that shift the pollution from the tailpipe to powerplants. If they were serious about alternate energy, then there would be many nuclear plants under construction as they are the best way to reduce CO2. Every technology has issues. Dams? I don't see any being built for hydroelectric power. Windmills? Ask Texas what happens when severe winter weather hits. Solar? Maybe for the desert southwest, but not for any area where clouds obscure or snow covers panels. Mirrors focused on a central tower? How many toasted birds are on the ground around California's installation. How many acres of farmland are now being covered with solar panels? How many more would be needed to ensure an adequate supply of energy to charge all these vehicles?

This does not even address an issue that my niece mentioned when we were visiting up in NY recently (just returned Wednesday). EVs don't like cold weather. The range of EVs is greatly reduced with cold weather. Lithium batteries can't be charged below 32F without some form of heating to make sure they are charged and not damaged. So part of the battery's energy has to go into heating elements. Then temperature has to be watched so that they don't get too hot (thermal runaway anyone?). That also takes energy to keep them cool.

One can say that only a small part of the energy contained in gasoline gets to the ground through the wheels. The same thing can be said for the energy being used at the generating plant. I looks as if proponents of EVs assume that 100% of the energy used by the generator reaches the charger, 100% of the energy that reaches the charger goes into the battery, and 100% of the energy contained in the battery goes to the ground through the wheels and not wasted. That is no more realistic than assuming 100% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel is used and not wasted.

I would be willing to drive a hybrid F150, but an EV is just not going to work for us any time soon. If anyone thinks one would fit his or her lifestyle and needs, then go for it.

Though I tend to agree that towing with an electric vehicle is not very practical, attributions about the price of gasoline and the motivations therefore are a little over the edge.  Ouch! there I go biting my fingers again to stop them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2022/03/17/hydrogen-clean-energy-climate-change/ - https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2022/03/17/hydrogen-clean-energy-climate-change/

Here's a site that shows the stations in place to cross the country by corridor: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/corridors?country=US

With over 53,000 stations in place and more being added, my concern is not recharging.

As most of you know I switched over to a truck camper I built. I wanted something much less weight and would go where I wish to go. I need more rural places to charge and I see it coming. 

Example is Baja this past Feb! We traveled 340miles between petro stations, never mind finding a charge station. There are some there, yet like some of the petro stations, not open for business... 

Safe Travels all

I'm in favor of using alternative means of power generation. I just don't see it replacing the need for generating capacity that will be there when there are periods of insufficient sunshine to generate power or when there are insufficient winds to run those wind turbines. Nuclear fusion is still years away from the break-even point of generating more power than is used to contain and compress the plasma sufficiently for fusion. Fast breeder reactors that produce fuel and then burn it would be nice except that it would be difficult to get something like that built.

I'm not a Luddite. I just don't see battery operated vehicles as being something that would work for me as a sole vehicle. I would not object to having one for in and around town driving, but not for the type of travel we do. We will be going to my Dad's funeral service with the RPod in April. Then in May we are planning a trip to Utah and Arizona so we can be there for our oldest grandson's high school graduation and to see our daughters and grandchildren in both states. Given that it will be about 5-6K miles over a number of days, extended charging times are not a viable option.

I agree with OG about the development alternative energy systems and the need to use the technology we have as urgently as we can.  On the other hand, I appreciate the reality that there must be a transition period in which we will inevitably end up using the old technology for some purposes, such as towing trailers, for a longer period than we may like, or that is objectively best for the planet.  Such is the human condition.

If I had the money today, I'd run down to Whaling City Ford and sign up on the list to buy a Ford Lightning F-150 and use it as much as possible, including local camping adventures, while keeping my Ecoboost F-150 for long trips, but, in spite of working until I was 70 to maximize my Social Security check, I simply don't have the money to do so.  I have to get by with what I have until I give up my travel trailer camping activities.  I think that dilemma is one many of us on this board face.  

Fast forward to now, and we have the opposite problem. Because of the cutbacks, they are now trying to ramp up production to meet the new demand. 

The United States happens to now be  a net exporter of crude oil. Yes, we produce more oil than we consume. It is a fact that the US is producing more oil now than it did at the beginning of 2020.

It's also a fact that "most" of the oil the US produces is what is known as "light, sweet crude" (aka low sulfur). For historical reasons, most of the refineries in the US are geared toward processing the heavy sulfur crude. It's unlikely that refineries will retool soon (or ever) to deal with the differences between heavy sulfur and low sulfur.

As for EVs and the load on the grid... We have many friends with EVs, and I would say more than half of them charge their EVs at home using excess power from their solar panels. I would say most of those never, ever use a charging station. The net result is that those EVs cause essentially zero load on the grid, and the power they actually use is in essence "pre-paid".

Nothing is as simple as you might expect.

A couple of points to consider:

1.  Hydro electric power is becoming increasingly problematic in the west.  They just don't have enough precipitation to keep the reservoirs full enough to reliably generate electricity throughout the year.  Lake Powell, for example, is only 35' from reaching the point where the water will be too low to run the turbines.  The pump up and release schemes for generating power during peak use are also problematic because of the lack of water due to lack of snow pack and due to evaporation from warmer summers.

2.  Nickel, an essential ingredient of lithium batteries, is increasingly in short supply.  Low grade ore is problematical in that the refining and processing releases significant amounts of CO2 and is mined in open pit mines.  In fact, the extraction of both lithium and nickel present environmental problems that we need to overcome.  

Every form of energy we can come up with has its share of challenges.  But, challenges are what we are often good at overcoming, if we make the commitment to do so and follow through with it.  Our biggest challenge is to develop alternative sources of energy on an urgent basis because we don't have a lot of time to avoid the inevitable consequences of continuing in with fossil fuel energy sources.  

LFP batteries (for example) use neither nickel or cobalt, at the expense of somewhat smaller storage capacity. The good news here is that there are newer versions of LFP batteries that reduce that difference. I don't think they will catch up to the more exotic chemistries, but they might get close.

There's also the advent of solid state lithium batteries. Articles I've read recently seem to indicate that they (MIT is one research facility) are getting close to a solid state battery that takes fewer steps to make and almost doubles the capacity of current "wet" lithium batteries.

It also looks like we might be able to extract lithium from sea water. That would be an interesting development.

In addition, Duke Energy is proposing cutting the rate paid for rooftop solar. Also, federal solar tax incentives are set to expire at the end of this year from what I have read, although there may be state incentives.

I do believe this is where diodes come into play. If concerned add inline. 

As far as shade goes, capacitors come to mind.. How many, at what size and if efficient for cause to be be determined. 

I was just down in Baja and didn't see a cloud for nearly a month in the Southwest. Is solar worth it, ya down there!

Up here, it takes some doing to come even close to what they have available. 

Can we do it? Ya.. with some effort.. If so willin' 

Again, I approach this from a different propestive than draggin' a trailer.. 

Yet in your response you stated: They will do some shade mitigation.

What do you think of solar shingles or tiles?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1505679545965314054 - https://twitter.com/i/status/1505679545965314054

There is a company that started in the SF Bay Area that offers a battery exchange system for electric vehicles.  When you purchase an electric vehicle, you can buy it with the manufacturer's battery or you can get the exchangeable battery.  Their batteries are modular and can be removed separately charged on an automated system, then put back into the battery pack for automated installation in the vehicle.  The battery change process appears to take about the same time as filling the gasoline tank of an ICE powered vehicle.  This would reduce the problem with the range issue to the extent that the battery exchange time would be fast enough that one could quickly get back onto the road with little delay.  

A second advantage to the exchangeable battery pack was also noted.  The batteries are charged on a trickle charge basis and the charging power electricity consumption can be moderated to charge when the grid has surplus power from renewable sources, instead of using on demand power that often is generated with high CO2 emitting power sources.  According to the promoters of this system, the trickle charge system extends the battery life, and does not degrade the battery as does a rapid high voltage charging system.  

A third, and very important, advantage is that these battery while in storage while waiting to be put into vehicle battery packs, can be used to store surplus electricity generated by renewable sources such as solar and wind.  One of the biggest Achilles heels to renewable energy is the fact that it doesn't necessarily produce energy at the moment it is needed.  A nation/worldwide system of exchangeable batteries would go a long way to providing an electric power storage system to provide for the on demand power needs.

We are a long way from building the infrastructure for such a system, but it could solve many problems with the electrification of vehicles, CO2 emissions, renewable energy storage, and would create a phenomenal demand for skilled labor.  If we don't get moving on this quickly, we can be sure that China will.

I agree the idea of exchangeable battery packs has been around for quite a while, but now there is a system actually in use that works well.  [StephenH, sounds like you didn't watch the video.  It might be worth a gander.]  There is absolutely no reason why basic battery shape and voltage standards cannot be set.  Again, if we don't do it, we can count on the Chinese doing it for us.

The technology can exist for battery swaps, just like many do with propane tanks, if we set our minds to make it work.  As with all technological innovations, you can be negative and come up with a million reasons why it won't work, but clever creative people look for ways to make it work.  For my self, I'd like to see a viable EV industry here in North America.  

As for sharing tools, apparently you don't live in a community where there are tool lending libraries.  They thrive and are built on community sharing, just like public book libraries.  They are located all over the country, indeed, in many places in the world.  

Before you attack ideas, at least take a look at the CNBC report, which it appears that you did not do.

Meanwhile, perhaps a solid-state battery will be viable, but not any time soon according to this Forbes article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2021/11/28/solid-state-batteries-promise-electric-car-popularity-boost-but-technical-mountains-await/?sh=6f2d0d9b632f - https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2021/11/28/solid-state-batteries-promise-electric-car-popularity-boost-but-technical-mountains-await/?sh=6f2d0d9b632f

One of the nice things about swaps, if they became common place, is that they'd vastly improve range for towing with an EV.  Of course, that depends upon whether there is an adequate infrastructure.

But for those who have to live with the reality of climate change, thinking outside the box, looking for the positive in possible solutions, not reflexively shooting down every idea that comes along, and supporting innovation in motive power options is what will help us find a solution to replace the ICE.  Many ideas will be proposed and will have to be tested.  Some will, at first glance, seem really great but will prove impractical over the long run.  Others may seem impractical at first, but will have the seeds of a long term solution that will bloom as we develop the technology.  

As with all new ideas, people tend to eschew change and find reasons why things won't work.  I saw this in the elevator industry.  Many of the old elevator engineers despised the demise of mechanical relay logic controlled elevators and pissed and moaned about the new electronically controlled systems, claiming they'd be unreliable and unsafe.  The reality was that they were outside their comfort zone and didn't want to admit that the technology had developed beyond their knowledge base.  This tendency exists in all forms of technology, whether elevators, computer systems, energy development, or transportation.  

If we are to progress beyond petroleum based energy, we need to embrace change and innovation of all sorts and forms, and get out of our comfort zones, where we are familiar with the existing technology but it may not be the best solution.  As for whether battery swapping will work, no one really knows because the technology is in its infancy.  The key to finding solutions is to embrace possibilities and explore them thoroughly, not to reflexively say no.  

I had high hopes for fuel cells. however, transporting hydrogen of a sufficient purity to be used and not contaminate the catalysts needed to work still seems to be an issue. Pumping cryogenic hydrogen is going to require even more technology than battery swapping, not to mention what happens if there is a crash. Hydrogen burns almost invisibly when pure.

Who knows whether Ample's system will succeed or whether someone will find better solutions?  But they are presenting a possible solution that may work.  Regarding their lack of penetration into large automotive manufactures, I didn't know that Nissan/Renault was an insignificant player in the automotive industry.  I was in Colombia last week and was surprised that this insignificant manufacturing company had about a quarter of the automotive market in vehicles on the road in metropolitan Medellin area.  

OG, apparently you didn't understand my saying that I'm not in the EV market.  I'm not looking for long range towing with an EV.  It simply isn't going to happen in my lifetime.  My point in posting the information about battery exchange is that it is simply a technology that may have some promise if it is explored and developed.  Your reply reminds me of the old elevator engineers I mentioned.

Yes, the USA is a big country that presents challenges for EV's.  We have just under 3.8M square miles in our borders.  China is close with a tad over 3.7M.  Both countries have similar distances to cover with major population centers densely packed and huge expanses of open sparsely populated areas.  Building charging options for the outlying areas in both countries will be a tremendous challenge for each.  I don't want to sound nationalistic, but I think we in the US are pretty clever folks and have the creativity to solve this problem.  Maybe I'm just a dreamer, but I want a better world for my grandkids too.

Meanwhile, the increasing cost of raw materials and the increasing cost of the energy needed to process and, more importantly, to move them to where needed is making such conversion to alternative energy even more out of reach for the average person. We have not yet seen the full impact of rising diesel fuel prices, but it is hitting now. Prices of just about everything we need to buy are about to go through the roof.

Honestly, we will never solve the problem of consumption of resources.  There will never be "enough" because it is human nature to always want more in a world of finite limits.  All we can do is muddle through as best we can and try to minimize the complications by keeping an open mind to ideas that may help mitigate the consequences of our materialism.  But I wax too philosophical in that.

We all could learn some lessons about simplifying our lifestyles, but I do not want to give up air conditioning in the summer or heat in the winter. I am too old to go out and chop and split wood. I did that while I was young and have no urge to do so again.

I posted the article because it was an interesting development in the evolution of EV's.  I am not, and have never, advocated that battery swapping is the only viable solution to the long range travel problem with battery powered vehicles.  It was nothing more than something interesting worth sharing.  I make no pretense at knowing all there is to know about alternative energy systems.  I leave it to people far more knowledgable than you, OG, to inform me about what new systems may be on the horizon.  

Anyone can shoot down ideas that others propose, especially when one's ego is involved.  The reality is that the technology is developing much faster and more broadly than even the self described "experts" are aware of.  It is entirely possible that some very talented engineers and scientists, who are actually doing real time research into non-fossil fuel energy development, will find solutions that no one ever thought of before, despite being told they're wasting time by people who retired many years ago.  

Some, myself included, like to look at new ideas as being like a glass half full, while others like to point out it is half empty.

  Thank you LO and OG for a very good discussion.  I have learned much and appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and thoughts, as for everyone else on this thread.

One underlying assumption in the discussion is that CO2 is BAD.  I am an Arborist by trade, so know a little about what makes trees tik.  They love CO2 and more is better.  The same for most all plants.

I don't think we have the capacity to understand the complexities of the earths atmosphere and geography.  Modeling is at best guessing and can be, at worst, dishonest.

I love the idea of EV's for many reasons, chief is the idea of moving the pollution source out of the urban areas and making our air healthier.  I have driven a hybrid for the past 6 years, and I look forward to an EV truck that makes economic and functional sense.  At that point, I most likely will be a buyer. 

Thank you again, for the good discussion and I learned a lot.

In any case, we probably need to get back to discussing the merits of various electric vehicles and whether they are suited for towing and not stay on climate which has already led to discord.

I consider myself to be normally intelligent and aware of the ecology,science and usefulness of energy technology on a layman's level-not professional.

My plan is to continue using an ICE vehicle for our towing and use a hybrid or EV  for in town and short trips. we have suitcase portable solar panels for the Rpod and use them all the time.  We have a passive solar room on the south side of our house which adds to our heat system. We tried to get roof top solar panels, but as Stephen noted, we are not willing to lose all of our trees in order to get the necessary exposure. We live in the country and use propane powered appliances.

so I think our overall energy plan is viable for the present-maybe not the optimum, but a livable,workable and affordable compromise that  works for us. I would be happy to change IF/WHEN those energy changes make financial sense and correlate with our lifestyle.

Safe travels

Vann

Each advocate of some form of energy technology has his/her own perspective and biases.  Those opposed to nuclear energy, for example, point to the waste disposal problem and claim that it is insurmountable.  They may be right, but at this point the question is still open.  The same for fuel cell technology.  It is filled with issues that make it problematical, but it is worth the effort to keep on investigating it.  EV's are no different.  It is a technology in its infancy and we would be well advised to keep an open mind in regard to all possibilities.  Battery swapping certainly has its detractors and complexities, but it is premature to absolutely rule it out.  Everyday, people currently working in scientific fields are coming up with new approaches and it would be just plain foolish not to keep one's mind open to the possibility of new discoveries.  StephenH, is right when he observes that what we think of as settled science today may not be tomorrow.  

OG, I figured my post would stir a hornets nest.  All sides of a discussion must be considered.   Your term "climate change deniers" is a perjorative.  There are no such people.  My point above is that running through the whole discussion of EV and alternative energy sources, is this assumption that has become ingrained in our culture through popular media and government funded pronouncements that CO2 is BAD and if not quickly reduced, we are all doomed.  This, of course, is hubris and arrogance of the highest order.

I started the thread to ask about other's thoughts on an EV truck for long distance towing, and it has been a very good discussion.  Personal economic decisions are based on sound financials for the individual and delivery of function (value).  That is how a market economy functions.  I am glad to embrace the EV trend, but it must be based on sound economics, not emotional claptrap about how the sky is falling and we are all doomed if we don't embrace the current popular trend.

I appreciate all of the good information you have provided.