Renewable propane
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URL: http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15499
Printed Date: 20 May 2024 at 10:55pm
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Topic: Renewable propane
Posted By: David and Danette
Subject: Renewable propane
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 5:36pm
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Renewable propane is something new I just read about and sounds like something positive. From what I read it is a positive step for a fuel source that has a low carbon output. Sounds like good news for campers since campers use propane for refrigeration, heat and cooking. Hope it soon is available nationwide. ------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Replies:
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 6:37pm
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Do you think you could provide a link to the article you read? Much thanks. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 7:02pm
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Best I can do is Google " 3.15- Reducing Carbon Intensity " I am not that smart with computers sorry. Maybe someone else can create a link ------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: lostagain
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 7:48pm
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Thanks. I found it: https://propane.com/environment/podcast/3-15-reducing-carbon-intensity-with-renewable-propane/ - https://propane.com/environment/podcast/3-15-reducing-carbon-intensity-with-renewable-propane/ Very interesting if it can withstand the normal scientific peer review and can be scaled up for mass production at an economical cost. ------------- Never leave footprints behind. Fred & Maria Kearney Sonoma 167RB Our Pod 172 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 2.7 EcoBoost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 12:03pm
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It's a biofuel. Like biodiesel, its made from biological sources, veggie oil, etc. The difference is that it's chemically identical to fossil propane, so it's compatible with any device that burns fossil propane, unlike biodiesel. So that's good. But the article from PERC is highly misleading. It shows the carbon intensity of renewable propane as much better than grid electricity. But look at the units (gCO2/MJ). They are equating megajoules of energy contained in fuels to megajoules of electricity in wires. That's very misleading because if what you want is electricity then you have to run the fuel (propane gasoline, diesel, coal, whatever) through an engine of some kind to produce the electricity, and that process is very inefficient. Also, the electricity grid is rapidly decarbonizing via massive increases in cheap solar and wind capacity, so it's carbon intensity is dropping quickly. PERC is a propane industry lobbying group so that kind of misdirection is to be expected. It's not wrong, just not on point. Bottom line is that if you want to lower atmospheruc CO2 and can use electricity, do it, and invest in solar and wind to produce it. That's the quickest path to low carbon. Yeah I know nukes work and are zero carbon but no one wants one in their backyard. That being said, there are energy requirements that can't currently be met practically by electricity. Those include aviation, long haul trucking, and long haul rpod towing. For those application, biofuels like SAF (sustainable aviation fuel), biodiesel, etc are a great intermediate step until the day comes when batteries are up to the challenge, if they ever are. I'm not quite seeing where renewable propane fits into that though as it's not currently used as a vehicle fuel, and it's much better for home heating and cooking just to convert to electric. For that matter, RV fridges are in process of transition to electric too. I guess maybe for RV off grid cooking, heating and water heating renewable propane might make sense. It's an easy change for the consumer. Overall though that's not going to move the atmospheric carbon needle much one way or the other. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 3:55pm
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One thing to note.. in a lot of the world, propane does the same things it does for RPoders, but for whole homes.. so the scale may be better than "we" think. Our home doesn't use propane or CNG, but nearly every other one on this road does. We have a geothermal heat pump, but our main heat is from a good old fashioned wood stove. https://postimg.cc/YGyx0R1Y">
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Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 8:30pm
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Nice! Is that a soapstone stove? ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2022 at 3:41am
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Curious as to how many face cord do you go through each winter and what kind of wood do you burn. Our stove also has a large glass door in front to view the fire but is all boiler plate steel. In northern Michigan we burn mainly ash, maple, beech, and ironwood and go through 12 face cords in a normal winter. It also has a 4" flexible pipe attached in the rear to take in outside air for combustion, a huge plus and much more efficient in keeping the humidity at a healthy level. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: gpokluda
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2022 at 12:23pm
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Back in the 80's and 90's we lived in the mountains east of Albuquerque in a log home I built from a kit. We had a large Lopi wood stove that was our main source of heat, with some electric baseboard for when we went out of town. We would routinely burn 3 cords of juniper/pinon mix and 2-3 cords of oak to heat the two story, 1800sqft. Heating a home mostly by wood was a science for us. Wood was usually seasoned at least a year if not two, burn the juniper/pinon mix during the day and load up with oak at night so there would be a good bed of coals in the morning to get the fire going. It was a lot of work. We spent our summers cutting wood and staging it to season for the following years. I remember many a wood cutting "picnics" and camping trips. ------------- Gpokluda 2017 Rpod 179(sold 2023) 2022 Escape 5.0TA 2022 Ford F150 4X4 3.5EB Triumph T120 |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2022 at 6:37pm
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In the 1970s we lived in Swansboro, NC. We did not have much money. We moved into a double-wide in which the previous owner had installed a wood burning stove, but had not left it. I purchased a cast iron Consolidated Duchwest stove and installed it on a thick fire resistant pad and built an enclosure around the back sides to shield the walls. I went out to the forest and cut up fallen wood with a small chain saw. I took it home and split it with an ax. I did not have a splitting maul or wedges. We didn't have a lot of money to spare. I did this because as inexpensive as heating oil was at the time, it was still quite expensive for us. The wood burning stove allowed me to not have to buy so much oil. We ended up selling that place when I enlisted in the Army and entered into active duty. I don't miss those days. I could not do the same today. The arthritis in my hands would rule that out. I miss the old stove, but I don't miss the care and feeding of it. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: GlueGuy
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 1:53pm
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My Mom & Dad lived on a lake in northern Minnesota during their retirement years. They had a "Wilkening" fireplace installed in the divider between their living room and rec room (it was a 2-sided fireplace). It was quite innovative at the time; it drew combustion air through a large diameter pipe to the outside, and it had a bunch of baffling above the firebox to extract heat from the flue. The firebox itself was suspended in the space around it. The fireplace had large vents above and below the firebox such that it would draw cool room air in near the floor and the hot air went out with similar vents above the firebox. They insulated the house to the nines. IIRC, they put in R50 insulation in the ceiling. It was good enough that they only needed firewood to heat their house all winter. This is in Minnesota where the winter cold is legendary. That said, they still went through ~~ 6 cord of wood each winter. Luckily, they had acreage that allowed them to collect various hard woods from their own property. ------------- bp 2017 R-Pod 179 Hood River 2015 Ford F150 SuperCrew 4WD 3.5L Ecoboost |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 5:36pm
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I heat (mostly) with wood as well. If you're not in an urban area where particulate pollution is a big issue wood heat can be quite green (pun intended). It's biomass so you're returning CO2 to the atmosphere that was extracted there via photosynthesis to begin with. So it depends how the wood was harvested, processes, a s transported. Wood is not a very energy sense fuel, as anyone who has seriously heated with it knows well. So if its locally and selectively harvested then it's good if it's I industrially harvested or shipped a long distance not so much. In my case I burn about 3 cords a year which I cut and split from dead or undesirable trees on my property. My chainsaw and splitter are electric so the only fossil fuel I use is diesel for the tractor to haul the wood to the woodshed, and in working on electrifying the tractor too. That's just me, I'm too cheap to buy wood I can cut myself and dont like maintaining a bunch of engines. Im looking forward to the day when the only ICE I own is in the airplane, I don't expect to live long enough to convert that. The problem I have with wood heat is my stove is small and wont heat the house at temps below about 25 so right now I have to use electric resistance heat to augment the wood. Resistance heat is the most inefficient and costly kind. So even though most of my heating btus are from wood I still have pretty high electric consumption in midwinter. My current heat pump is typical of past generations and has a balance point around 32 (balance point is the outside temp where the HVAC system kicks in the electric strip heaters) . The new heat pumps coming out have a COP above 2 down to 15 degrees or so, so they will be twice as efficient as the strips at that temp. That is the way to go now unless you live in a very cold location And the Inflation Reduction Act gives you a tax credit if you install one. Check it out. I'll stick with my statement that I don't expect bio propane to move the needle. Sure lots of rural folks have propane heat now, but that's because it's been cheaper than using electric resistance heat. That wonts be true in the future. Biologically produced propane is going to be expensive. I expect folks are going to vote with their pocketbooks and put in high performance heat pumps run on inexpensive solar and wind electricity. Anyway, we'll see. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 6:33pm
Yes, it's a Hearthstone Mansfield. We love it.
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Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 6:44pm
I am not sure what the measurement of a face cord is, but my guess it's near a "rick". A cord is a stack, 4 feet high, 4 feet deep, and 8 feet long, 128 cubic feat, stacked in such a manner that "a mouse can get through.. but a cat cannot". LOL.. We go through between 1.5 and 2 cords, burning whatever falls on the property or we get gifted..ie: "a tree is dead at my place, can you come get it" or words to that effect. On the stacks right now, we have red oak, white oak, walnut, cherry, and some locust. I have 2 cord or so of oak, and probably close to a cord of cherry waiting for splitting and stacking right now. I still split by hand so rounds accumulate during the summer, and get split and stacked in the fall/winter. 3,100 sqft or so.. 2 stories, open floor plan. The master suite runs about 5 degrees cooler, but we like it that way. https://postimg.cc/bDqs7MMd">  The heat prep zone.. https://postimg.cc/s10H5D4P">  White oak and walnut https://postimg.cc/232xwqDC">  Some wood coming home from the hunting property a couple winters ago... https://postimg.cc/zHXFNNnm">
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Posted By: Tars Tarkas
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 8:58pm
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Splitting wood got to hurt too much a few years ago so I bought a 30 ton splitter from Northern Tool. There's more than one way to do this calculation, but it came real close to paying for itself the first year. It still runs great and handles everything I throw at it. Life changes so right now I can't heat with wood, but we had a near-tornado a few months ago so I have a bunch of wood I'm going to split and stack anyway. Worst case, I guess I'll sell it. If firewood prices go up like propane and electricity I'll make a fortune. TT ------------- 2010 176 FJ Cruiser |
Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 9:26pm
Yeah, I promised myself I would get a splitter at 60... 63 in a week, still haven't made the move, though I was at TSC Monday, looked hard at what they had.. The "pays for itself" equation is always subjective.. but we did our install ourselves, still have not paid a penny outright for wood, we figure our break even was about 5 years in. 12 years now with the stove. It's also just, a better heat. And a better atmosphere. I never want to go to the basement and have a pour of bourbon and watch the heat pump run... LOL
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Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 9:39pm
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My sister and her husband installed a ground loop heat pump. It took some doing in the rocky soil of western NY. One part of their yard was solid rock so they had to route around that. It is more efficient, but I agree. There is nothing to see. A fireplace or wood stove with window is much more pleasant to look at. We have a fireplace, but prefer to use the gas pack furnace/AC for heating and cooling. We used to live in a house with a heat pump. Our electric bills in winter were sky-high and that was keeping the heat turned down. We had a couple of oil-filled electric heaters to use at night in the bedroom since that was a more even heat than the heat pump could provide. I don't want to live in a house with a heat pump for heat again. Natural gas heat is much more affordable. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 8:32am
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"Cord" means differently in different parts of the country. In many areas the standard cord is the given which is 4' wide by 4' high x 8' long. In northern Michigan many refer to a "FACE" cord (and is sold this way) as 16" wide x 4' high x 8' long so in the case I gave above where I state we go through 12 cords during any given winter, using the standard cord as measurement I actually burn 4 cord/winter. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 10:07am
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Here is more information that will define the various types of cords: https://kylesgarage.com/face-cord-vs-cord/ - https://kylesgarage.com/face-cord-vs-cord/ ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: furpod
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 11:22am
That's a good link, and covers it pretty well.. In our case, actual measurements can be a bit tricky, because we don't buck our rounds to 16 inches, but 22. That's how long of a split I can reliably load into the firebox, east/west. And that gets me my best bTu load, for longer burns, less loading. Until it gets below about 10F outside, we can usually go on 2 loads a day, but extra windy days or highs in the low teens to single digits will mean 3 loads a day. Thankfully our winters are mild enough that this only happens a few times a year, at most. And our high efficiency heat pump allows us to not be bankrupt if we let it run some, so I usually don't build a fire until it's below 40F outside..
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2022 at 4:00pm
That is no longer true. The old style heat pumps quit being effective around the low to mid thirties. Below that all they do is blow cool air so the resistive heat strips have to operate and that is where your costs skyrocket. The new cold temp temp heat pumps are much improved, and work well down to around 15 degrees or even lower.The Japanese have led the way in this tech, with their inverter based minisplits. Look at the Mitsubishi hyper heat for example. That is the way to go nowadays. It will be significantly cheaper and cleaner than gas heat going forward and as more and more cities ban new gas installations it will become a bad investment to have one of those systems. It also makes ground loop heat pumps less attractive financially because the benefit of a ground loop heat pump is that the ground heat source is warmer than the air so the heat pump is both more effective and efficient. But if a similar benefit can be achieved without resisting to digging up your yard by using a better air to air heat pump why do it? If you look at the btu content of wood on a per pound basis rather than a per cord basis it really doesn't matter what kind of wood you burn as long as it's seasoned properly. Oven dry hardwood holds about 8600 btu/lb. Resinous softwoods are slightly higher at around 9000 btu/lb. Basically, a pound of cellulose is cellulose. Ppl like to burn hardwood because it's denser so if they're buying a cord they get more btus. But if you're harvesting your own wood it doesnt really matter. So I just burn whatever I have available. If it's wood and it's dry I burn it. If it's green I don't even try. You're just wasting most of the chemical energy in the wood vaporizing water. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2022 at 4:30pm
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https://evolvedthermal.com/ground-source-vs-air-source-heat-pump/ - https://evolvedthermal.com/ground-source-vs-air-source-heat-pump/ Ground loop will still be more efficient than air source. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2022 at 5:14am
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That company is trying to sell geothermal so they're not comparing themselves with up to date air source heat pump technology. That being said, of course a geothermal heat pump will always be more efficient when it's cold, because the ground heat source will be warmer than the air. But would that difference in efficiency ever pay back the much higher installation cost? Its cheaper most places just to add some solar modules to make up the difference in electricity usage. In a very cold climate where even a new high performance air source heat pump won't work then sure a homeowner should consider ground source. But in those climates ground source gets very expensive because the frost depth and ground temps require a very large deep geothermal loop or it can freeze up since it is continuously extracting heat from the ground all winter. I'd like to be wrong but I don't really see a cost effective alternative to combustion in those climates. Keep those wood stoves going! ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: David and Danette
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 7:12am
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I think when we replace our Carrier package heat pump we will replace it with the better design Carrier package heat pump the Performance 15 50VR it has a more efficient heat pump I think like what offgrid had mentioned with a two stage compressor. By the past posts wood is a popular option for heat and watching the national news it mentioned someone installing a wood burning stove to replace an oil burning furnace to save money from the high price of oil. ------------- 2018 Vista Cruiser 19BFD (2018- 2012 Vibe 6503 (2014-2019) 2009 r-pod 171 (2009-2014) Middle Tn 2014 Ram 1500 Quad cab |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 8:51am
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Part of the problem is the frost level. I saw two types. One used a run that was bigger, buried so that the ground loop was wide and shallow. The other was deep and the loops were installed vertically. Those would likely work in the really cold climates. The need to dig deep for a horizontal loop would likely not be too much more than drilling for a vertical loop. What makes the air source so much less attractive is that when the heat just isn't there to extract, pure resistance electric elements are used. This is why my heating bills were very high. I admit the newer, high efficiency ones would be better and not use resistance heat as much, but that is not to say that there are not situations where they would not be used. Also, the air source ones need to run a defrost cycle periodically to make sure the outside coil does not get an ice build-up. If one lives in an area where there is a lot of snow, then one would need to have a way to keep the outside unit sheltered from snow build-up so the snow does not block the airflow. Ground loops don't have those problems. In some areas, solar modules would work great. In others, subject to many days of overcast skies, solar might not provide much assistance. I grew up in western New York. We had plenty of cold, cloudy, snowy (lake effect snow belt) days where solar would not have contributed much. If these days were followed by sunny ones, then one would have had to go and clear the snow off the panels for them to do much good. I would say that if the situation is such that air source would work, then go for it. If not, then ground source is a great option. It is also good for those scorcher days when the air temperature is hot since the heat pump would have a much cooler place to dump the heat from the house. That is the other half of the heating/cooling problem which has not been addressed so far in this topic. Another option is a water-jacket wood burning furnace. It could be teamed with different backup sources for heating water to circulate in a hydronic heating system (radiators) or a water to air heat exchanger for a forced air system. I know people who have had such systems. Some use indoor water jacket wood burning stoves. Others have a system that is outdoors and so keeps the indoor air clean and free from smoke and the possibility of CO poisoning. https://centralboiler.com/ - https://centralboiler.com/
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: Pod People
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 10:22am
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We have been in our house since we built it in1975. The insulation at that time was not great, but adequate. We have gone through several heating system configurations since the beginning--all electric heat pumps, hydronic system, propane furnace and wood stove has been used. We currently have a good combination that serves us well. We live in a rural area with no natural gas available. So, we use a combination of electric, propane and wood for our heating needs. We have a Trane high efficiency dual fuel heat pump system (electric/propane) that is augmented by a jacketed woodstove with blower. Being in central NC, we use the heat pump(electric) most of the time. Once the outside temps get to around 40-42 degrees, the propane furnace kicks in. We have five acres of woods, so we augment the heat with our woodstove. In the depths of winter, we will use the woodstove almost every day during the daytime and it will usually die out around 3-4am. We use about 2 cords per winter that we cut and split. Our combined electric/propane bills are reasonable for our square footage. However, as we both are approaching our middle 70’s, our wood usage will probably be declining in the future. We have a small tractor to move the logs, a hydraulic splitter for the wood and 5 acres of trees for wood supply. The only issue is labor and energy in this case. So we have to assume that our actual cash heating costs will be increasing as we age. Travel often and safe Vann ------------- Vann & Laura 2015 RPod 179 https://postimg.cc/0zwKrfB9"> 
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Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 12:09pm
StephenH, you keep referring to the performance of the older air source technology. With all due respect, please get an update. Look for example at the Fujitsu EXLTH mini splits. They operate efficiently down to around -15F. You and I will never ever see temps anywhere near that low. The ASHRAE 99% heating design temp where I live is 12F. That is the number HVAC professionals use to design heating system capacity. Yours is more like 20F. I just finished modelling the thermal performance of my house and an upgrade to my HVAC system, prompted by the tax benefits for new heat pumps, solar, energy storage, heat pump water heaters, and insulation in the IRA. A couple of those Fujitsus will heat my whole house. Compare that to the not so old Goodman central heat pump that was here when I bought the place 3 years ago, which craps out at around 35F, just as you say. There are modern efficient central heat pumps becoming available as well, but I think I'll go with mini splits personally. I like them because they are zoned, extremely quiet, and accommodate DIY installs. I've installed them before. Outside North America residential central air is very unusual, everyone goes with mini splits. For good reason. I do plan to retain my central ductwork system and air handler though, so I can potentially install a wood based hydronic system as you are suggesting. You can no longer purchase a glass front wood stove with a water jacket (aka a water stove) in the US. These are very common in Europe. I found one on Craigslist a couple years ago and have it sitting in my barn. It combines the benefits of hydronic heating with fire viewing (which we all seem to enjoy). I would like to connect it with a water thermal storage system and a water to air heat exchanger in my air handler. The storage system will allow on demand heating without needing to continuously fire the stove. Lots of technical and safety details to work out though and insulated storage tanks aren't cheap... As for solar, you would be right if we are talking about an off grid PV system, but no one does that if they don't have to due to lack of grid access. Residential solar nearly everywhere except Hawaii is net metered with an annual true up, meaning that you are credited for summer production in the winter. 100% credit. So no need to match solar production with heat load. Forget pushing snow off the array.... The small difference in electricity consumption between a geothermal heat pump and a high efficiency air source heat pump system can be met far more inexpensively with a few additional PV modules. Personally, if I was in the geothermal heat pump business I would be thinking about how to transition out and into solar and mini split contracting. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 12:15pm
------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: mjlrpod
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 3:39pm
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I use a pellet stove. I cant say enough good things about it. Mine is a Harmon fireplace insert. I never use the boiler in the house, unless I choose too. I burn nothing but douglass fir pellets and can go 2 weeks or more in the absolute dead of winter without emptying ash ashpan. Really good system, except you need to buy pellets. I don't have any neighbors saying " hey a pallet of pellets fell in my yard, wanna come get it?" ------------- 2017.5 Rp-172 2020 R-pod 195 2015 Frontier sv 4.0L 6cyl I'll be rpodding |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 5:45pm
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Yes, I keep referencing the old technology. It is what I experienced. I did say this, "I would say that if the situation is such that air source would work, then go for it. If not, then ground source is a great option. It is also good for those scorcher days when the air temperature is hot since the heat pump would have a much cooler place to dump the heat from the house. That is the other half of the heating/cooling problem which has not been addressed so far in this topic." I would have to see the newer ones in action. Mini-split systems might really be better, but the units I have seen hanging on the wall are not the most attractive things. It is, after all, a matter of choice. I choose to avoid heat pumps if I have a viable, cost effective alternative such as the natural gas heat and air conditioning package unit that we have. It might not be the most efficient, but it has been reliable except when the power has gone out. That is, however, rare and we do have the RPod to use if there is a longer outage. ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: jato
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 6:18pm
The Harmon is a great stove. We purchased our Harmon TL 200 in October 2002 and it still runs like a champ. We love the glass window in front as well as the outside air used for combustion. We use about 4 cords during the winter here in northern Michigan. Usually start wood burning mid-November to about mid-April. The only thing we replace on a somewhat regular basis, about every 5 years is the ceramic fiber afterburner which runs about $ 250. ------------- God's pod '11 model 177 '17 Ford F-150 4WD 3.5 Ecoboost Jim and Diane by beautiful Torch Lake "...and you will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 10:04am
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I too have experienced the limitations of the older style heat pumps. In fact, I still have one right now, and my electric usage spikes in mid winter even though I also have a wood stove as well. I'm getting rid of it next year. But times change, and technology progresses, so what was true 20 or ever 10 or even 5 years ago may be incorrect now. We all have to step up to the challenge to keep up to date. Heat pumps are one of those tech areas. Solar is another. As for cooling, that is of course simply running a heat pump in reverse, extracting heat from the inside air and dumping it into outside air. So either way, the heat pump efficiency follows the same thermodynamic formula. (It also turns out to be the same formula as in a heat engine, but inverted). For a heat pump theoretical efficiency is Thot/(Thot-Tcold) and for air conditioning it is Tcold/(Thot-Tcold) where T is absolute temperature. Since Thot-Tcold (also known as delta T) is a much smaller number than the absolute hot or cold temperature itself we can get phenomenally good efficiencies out of heat pumps and air conditioners. The numbers get better the smaller that temp differential is. And, the differential is much smaller for summer cooling than it is for winter heating. If say it's 100 degrees out and you have your tstat set at say 80 that's only 20 degrees delta T. Compare that to a typical winter heating scenario where it's 20 degrees out and your tstat is set at 70, a 50 degree spread. You see where this is heading? The point is that the benefit in reducing the temp you're pumping heat to is much less in summer than the benefit in raising it is in winter, because the summer delta T is not very large to begin with. So, if it doesn't pay to install geothermal for winter heating it won't pay to install it for summer cooling either. For me personally living in the mountains the summer cooling requirement is negligible. Propane is expensive, I have no access to natural gas and don't want to be spending money on or burning fossil fuel anyway. I would still personally consider installing a "geothermal" water source heat pump for winter if I had a nearby pond that was big enough to act as a heat source/sink for the system. Then it's just a matter of tossing a big coil of plastic pipe in the pond to act as a heat exchanger. Although water source heat pumps are more expensive than air source ones at least you don't have all the expense of burying the ground source loop, and the loop is much shorter because the heat exchange between it and water is much better than with soil. But lacking a large pond I'm going with a hybrid solar powered mini split/wood heat solution . Mini splits look fine to me. I don't have to heat or cool rooms I'm not using. What I don't like are noisy air handlers and compressors in centrdl systems. Both the inside and outside mini split units are very quiet. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 7:30pm
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A lot depends on one's situation. I might lean more toward a heat pump if I had oil or propane as the fuel source. The experience with the heat pump was in a rental where the landlord was certainly not concerned with how efficient the system was. The place my parents used to live (Forest Lake Estates in Zephyrhills, FL) used a pond as a source for heating the swimming pool, so I am familiar with that. They said it saved the park a lot of money. What did you think of the Classic Edge Titanium HDX outdoor furnace I linked? ------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 6:41am
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A lot of folks around my area have outdoor wood furnaces and love them. They are quite sophisticated nowadays, they had to be reengineered to meet the stringent new EPA standards. That also makes them pretty expensive. The new ones have microprocessor controlled dampers and use some water based thermal storage to levelize output so can generate heat as demanded by the home HVAC system. And they have large fireboxes so you can load them infrequently and with large pieces of firewood (less cutting and splitting to do). All the wood, smoke and soot mess, creosote and chimney fire risk stays outside the house which is nice. The downsides are that the cost and effort to install these isn't trivial. Besides the boiler itself you need to install either a water to air heat exchanger in your air handler, or hydronic radiators, or radiant floor heating, the first option being the easiest if you have existing ductwork. And you need to run a set of insulated pipes with a circulating pump from the boiler to the heat exchanger(s). The other downside is that you don't get to enjoy looking at the fire in your living room. Also you need to either run the boiler all the time when it's cold out or use antifreeze in the water loop. An indoor pellet stove has many of the same cleanliness and ease of use advantages and is much less expensive but then you have to buy the pellets. So overall if you have a free or inexpensive source of wood and plan on heating full time with it these can be a good choice in a rural area. You can still keep your indoor wood stove or fireplace for fire viewing. Not sure I'd install one in a suburban location even if allowed because of risk of it getting banned down the road due to particulate pollution. In my case I don't think I'm going to want to hear with wood exclusively as I get older. And I picked up a glass door water stove inexpensively which I can install and connect to a heat exchanger in my air handler and possibly some thermal storage. With a high efficiency heat pump as my base heating that will give me wood heating as much as I want and still let me view the fire. Just my observations, everyone's needs are different. One alternative they have in northern Europe is residential multi fuel (wood pellets, wood chips, even switchgrass (which is an interesting biomass fuel) burners combined with bulk solid fuel delivery. The furnaces are similar to a pellet stove but instead of storing and handling bags of pellets you have a wood pellet or chip storage bin in your basement which a supplier comes and fills as required. There is an automated auger system to deliver the pellets/chips and stoke the boiler. Pretty interesting alternative but we don't have it here. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |
Posted By: StephenH
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 1:08pm
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Kind of like a coal stove, but using various wood products instead.
------------- StephenH Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,... http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7712 - ouR escaPOD mods Former RPod 179 Current Cherokee Grey Wolf 24 JS |
Posted By: offgrid
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 2:51pm
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Yep, probably the European biomass furnaces have been modified from what were once coal furnaces to burn biomass solid fuels. Coal is strongly frowned upon in most of Europe these days, although it still provides about 10% of European energy requirements. I'm sure they wish it was more since the Russian natural gas cutoff. ------------- 1994 Chinook Concourse 1995 RV6A Experimental Aircraft 2015 Rpod 179 - sold |