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240V stepped down to a 120 leg

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Topic: 240V stepped down to a 120 leg
Posted By: Luv2Q
Subject: 240V stepped down to a 120 leg
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 9:49am
Electricity persons, I need your help.  Please!

I have 240V powering our water well (used only for irrigation and not critical to day-to-day living).  The wire is 2 hots plus an unshielded copper ground, and is wired to the pump's pressure switch.

Can I create a 120V leg by wiring a hot to one of the 240V legs and also grounding the 120V at the switch? If so, do I need a neutral & what should it be connected to?

My objective: I've got my Pod parked about 100' away from the house. Only nearby electricity is the water well, and I'd like to stop running out my heavy extension cord for shore power between trips.

Sure will appreciate some advice. I know a bunch of you folks are way ahead of the pack where electricity is concerned, and I'd sure like this to be done right .. and safe.

Thanks in advance ..


-------------
John & Teri
Tundra 5.7L V8 / RP 180
E2 WDH / Integrated controller (POS) replaced by Tekonsha P3



Replies:
Posted By: john in idaho
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 10:57am
I am not an electrician, but the short answer is yes, you can.  But things to consider --You may need a circuit breaker on the 120 leg to the pod.  And a ground fault thingy.  You don't want to turn off the power to the pump with a problem in the pod.  And you will probably want to put all that in its own box to keep weather out.   I would vote for getting professional advice.  That way you have someone to call if there is a problem.


Posted By: Outbound
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 12:40pm
To ground?  Technically, it'd work, but I wouldn't do it.  I'm not really fond of intentionally running current through an unshielded wire, and the ground wire is occasionally connected to the water system to reach earth - fine for a failsafe, but I'd rather not for regular use.

I might be inclined to repurpose one of the hot legs as neutral, changing it to a 120v circuit (assuming that the well is no longer in use).  But, its definitely against code.

Ideally, you'd be running 4-wire with the two hot legs, a common (white) and a ground before even considering this as an option.


-------------
Craig :: 2009 RP171 towed by a 2017 F150


Posted By: Seanl
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by Outbound

To ground?  Technically, it'd work, but I wouldn't do it.  I'm not really fond of intentionally running current through an unshielded wire, and the ground wire is occasionally connected to the water system to reach earth - fine for a failsafe, but I'd rather not for regular use.

I might be inclined to repurpose one of the hot legs as neutral, changing it to a 120v circuit (assuming that the well is no longer in use).  But, its definitely against code.

Ideally, you'd be running 4-wire with the two hot legs, a common (white) and a ground before even considering this as an option.

+1 on this. If you had a 220 like on a household drier of range with 3wire and a ground you coiuld tap 120 off of one side but not with two wire.


Edit:  You could do this with a step down transformer but I have no practical experience with this only theory. 





-------------
Sean, 2011 Rpod RP-173,2009 Jeep Liberty Rocky Mountain Edition


Posted By: CharlieM
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 2:26pm
I agree with the above comments. Intentional current in the bare safety wire of a two wire connection is against all codes, and for good reason. If the well is still in operation your best bet would be to run a new two conductor plus ground cable from your main breaker panel, protect it with a 30A single pole breaker, and install the standard 3 prong RV socket near the parking spot. For a long run like 100 feet I would use #8 or #6 AWG wire. Do it right and do it safe. 

-------------
Charlie
Northern Colorado
OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD
PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD


Posted By: john in idaho
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 4:34pm
I didn't know that one could do 220 without a ground wire.  So that pump circuit was installed some time ago?   


Posted By: CharlieM
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 5:36pm
It sounds like the 240 volt circuit is installed properly: two hot wires and one bare safety ground. The problem is there's no neutral, which is required for the 120 service. 

-------------
Charlie
Northern Colorado
OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD
PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD


Posted By: Outbound
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by john in idaho

I didn't know that one could do 220 without a ground wire.  So that pump circuit was installed some time ago?

Generally, in residential wiring for 220 (e.g. stove or electric dryer), you'd see a 4-prong; partially for standardization, partially because some appliances also need 120v (e.g. an oven generally has a 120v light, a stovetop usually has a 120v utility outlet on it).

For industrial applications and sometimes even in home workshops (e.g. arc welders), a pure 220v run will be used.  After all, 3-wire is cheaper than 4.
 




-------------
Craig :: 2009 RP171 towed by a 2017 F150


Posted By: Seanl
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Outbound



Originally posted by john in idaho

I didn't know that one could do 220 without a ground wire.  So that pump circuit was installed some time ago?

Generally, in residential wiring for 220 (e.g. stove or electric dryer), you'd see a 4-prong; partially for standardization, partially because some appliances also need 120v (e.g. an oven generally has a 120v light, a stovetop usually has a 120v utility outlet on it).
For industrial applications and sometimes even in home workshops (e.g. arc welders), a pure 220v run will be used.  After all, 3-wire is cheaper than 4.
 



Most electric baseboard heaters are 220 as well.

-------------
Sean, 2011 Rpod RP-173,2009 Jeep Liberty Rocky Mountain Edition


Posted By: Luv2Q
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 6:49pm
Thank you all for the constructive & helpful comments.

And just to clarify, yes, the well has been operational (30+ yrs) & will remain in service.  Wiring is 2 wire (both hot) + bare ground.

One other option that I don't believe was mentioned (or if it was I didn't quite catch it):  From the pump switch, run 2-wire + ground 220 to a subpanel.  From the subpanel, with a 120V 30 amp breaker, run a black (hot), white (neutral) and bare ground to a 30 amp outlet. All using appropriate wire size, of course, as suggested above.

Edit: After reviewing earlier posts, I believe CharlieM suggested this very thing. Thanks, Charlie.

How does this sound?  I'd still need to be cautious on what I run in the Pod in case the irrigation pump was operating.  That pump BTW is on a 30 amp breaker so I'll be upping that to 50 or 60; the existing pump wiring will handle it.

So, what do you think? Right track, or am I off in the weeds, lost as usual? Confused  Again, thanks everybody!


-------------
John & Teri
Tundra 5.7L V8 / RP 180
E2 WDH / Integrated controller (POS) replaced by Tekonsha P3


Posted By: JStrube
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 6:58pm
You could put a sub panel out at the well & have one run to it, but it would have to be 4 wire.  Still need that neutral.

-------------
2012 181G


Posted By: Luv2Q
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by JStrube

You could put a sub panel out at the well & have one run to it, but it would have to be 4 wire.  Still need that neutral.

But where do I connect the neutral at the pump switch?  I only have two posts (both hot) + a ground post to connect to.  Reason for my question: I've seen houses wired with 2 hots and a ground coming into the main service panel.  The subpanel idea looks like the same thing but on a smaller scale.  No?


-------------
John & Teri
Tundra 5.7L V8 / RP 180
E2 WDH / Integrated controller (POS) replaced by Tekonsha P3


Posted By: techntrek
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 7:22pm
Something that is a problem no matter what you do, the pressure switch is inside, so the wires running to the well aren't connected unless the well is running.

There are so many things you would have to do to make this safe and to code it will be far easier to just run a new 10 gauge underground-rated line out to the pod.  Won't be cheap though.


-------------
Doug ~ '10 171 (2009-2015) ~ 2008 Salem ~ http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1723 - Pod instruction manual


Posted By: CharlieM
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by Luv2Q




One other option that I don't believe was mentioned (or if it was I didn't quite catch it):  From the pump switch, run 2-wire + ground 220 to a subpanel.  From the subpanel, with a 120V 30 amp breaker, run a black (hot), white (neutral) and bare ground to a 30 amp outlet. All using appropriate wire size, of course, as suggested above.

Edit: After reviewing earlier posts, I believe CharlieM suggested this very thing. Thanks, Charlie.


Caution here. What I suggested was to install a separate 30A breaker in you main panel, not the well pump box. You cannot develop the neutral at the present pump. You must go all the way back to the main service entry at the house. Of the three wires coming from the power pole, two are hot and one is the neutral. This neutral is connected to a ground stake and ground buss at the main power panel and only there. The neutral and ground must be kept separate from there out to any using devices including sub panels. For 120V circuits you must carry neutral, hot, and ground separately. So you must run the 3 wires from the camper or sub panel all the way back to the main house panel, not the well house.

On a separate subject, upping the breakers that feed the well from the main panel may not be possible. The breakers are sized to protect the wire to the well pump, not the pump. Fifty Amp breakers would require #6AWG if using copper UF direct burial wire; 60 Amps requires #4. I would stay with a new 30A breaker and run at least #8 wire; #6 if you're really going 100 feet.



-------------
Charlie
Northern Colorado
OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD
PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD


Posted By: Luv2Q
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 8:46pm
Well, Rats .. Back to the drawing board.  But on the pressure switch, the wires going to it are hot regardless of whether the switch is tripped or not.  At the hot poles on the switch - which are then connected to my fictional subpanel - it seems like that would be nothing more than a splice.  But, it's clear that I'm in over my head.  Durn it, wish I understood more.  Thanks again for the advice, everybody.

-------------
John & Teri
Tundra 5.7L V8 / RP 180
E2 WDH / Integrated controller (POS) replaced by Tekonsha P3


Posted By: techntrek
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2014 at 9:43pm
If the pressure switch is close by then yes, the wires running from your panel to it would be hot all the time, but as mentioned w/o a neutral you aren't in the ballpark yet.

-------------
Doug ~ '10 171 (2009-2015) ~ 2008 Salem ~ http://www.rpod-owners.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1723 - Pod instruction manual


Posted By: Buxmont
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2014 at 11:23am
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">I've seen houses wired with 2 hots and a ground coming into the main service panel.  The subpanel idea looks like the same thing but on a smaller scale.  No?</span>
[/QUOTE]
What you are seeing, if this is the main panel being fed from the utility, and there is a meter (within 10') in-between, is not a ground, it is the Neutral.  The Ground is derived from pounding in an 8' rod into the earth. 
I agree with others, go get #10-2 UF (that is direct bury wire) and run a new single pole circuit to the Pod.


-------------
2015 178 Rpod
2003 Chevy Trailblazer


Posted By: JStrube
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2014 at 11:28am
Originally posted by Luv2Q

Originally posted by JStrube

You could put a sub panel out at the well & have one run to it, but it would have to be 4 wire.  Still need that neutral.

But where do I connect the neutral at the pump switch?  I only have two posts (both hot) + a ground post to connect to.  Reason for my question: I've seen houses wired with 2 hots and a ground coming into the main service panel.  The subpanel idea looks like the same thing but on a smaller scale.  No?

It would end at the sub panel.  What I heard you ask is that could you install a sub panel at your well, then put breakers there to serve both the well & POD.  The answer is yes, if you size everything correctly.  You would have a breaker in your main, sized to protect the wire to the sub panel, then in the sub panel, a breaker for the pod & a breaker for the well.  The POD breaker would be 30A single pole, the well double pole of whatever size you need.  Mine at home is 30A. The neutral would not run to the pump, only the pod.  It has been a while since I did my wiring, would have to go back & consult the books to verify exact requirements.

I work on the utility side of the electric industry, so that is my area of concentration.  As a consequence, I learn quite a bit of the customer side of the meter, enough to seek out the right answers, but not enough to be second nature.

Electricity is fun, as long as you keep it in the wires.


-------------
2012 181G


Posted By: CharlieM
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2014 at 11:59am
Correct answer. The neutral has to go to the Pod, but not to the pump itself. The OP doesn't say if the pump/controller is in a well house but carrying the neutral to the pump area would allow for a future light, heat tape, or outlet for tools.  

-------------
Charlie
Northern Colorado
OLD: 2013 RP-172, 2010 Honda Pilot 3.5L 4WD
PRESENT: 2014 Camplite 21RBS, 2013 Supercharged Tacoma 4L V6 4WD



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