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Elecgric Vehicles - F250 Lightning - Event Date: 16 Mar 2022

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lostagain View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Calendar Event: Elecgric Vehicles - F250 Lightning
    Posted: 27 Mar 2022 at 8:36pm
I think there was a change in the video I originally watched on the CNBC site.  It looks like they took the battery swapping segment out.  I found the video and hope this link works.  Whether such a swapping scheme would work is far from certain, but given the stakes we face with CO2 emissions, it is worth keeping an open mind.  Here's the link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl5UJQzP7NE  If it doesn't work, the search I did was CNBC EV battery swapping.  

One of the nice things about swaps, if they became common place, is that they'd vastly improve range for towing with an EV.  Of course, that depends upon whether there is an adequate infrastructure.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2022 at 9:10pm
One thing needed for such a scheme to work is a fleet of vehicles with standardized location of battery packs and standardized connections. Every vehicle pictured in the video was a sub-compact, totally unsuited for towing. Reality is that the devil is always in the details. We drive vehicles of different size and shapes. Such a swap facility as pictured would not work when spacing and placement for wheels to lift the vehicle. I don't know why they don't build it with a pit like the old oil change facilities where vehicles would not need to be lifted. Even then, unless vehicle manufacturers agreed on locations or the facility were built with the flexibility to reconfigure for the vehicle, then it is a nice idea, but not ready for prime time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote David and Danette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 5:02am
   When watching the video the biggest thing to overcome would be exchanging a almost new battery and receiving a old battery who would want to do that. If you bought a electric vehicle but not the battery and the battery instead was owned by the manufacturer. Then the manufacturer would have a along time agreement to always provide a good working battery for the vehicle owner. But I am sure there are a lot of very intelligent engineers that will find a way if it is to work at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 6:10am
For myself, I don't have a dog in this race.  By the time any TV's with adequate towing range, charging stations, and swappable batteries sufficiently penetrate into the infrastructure and vehicle market, I will have long sold my TV and trailer.  Same for my car.  It's going to last me until I'm too senile to drive, which may not be all that far in the future.  On my retirement income, there will simply be no more vehicle purchases, EV, ICE, or horse and wagon..  

But for those who have to live with the reality of climate change, thinking outside the box, looking for the positive in possible solutions, not reflexively shooting down every idea that comes along, and supporting innovation in motive power options is what will help us find a solution to replace the ICE.  Many ideas will be proposed and will have to be tested.  Some will, at first glance, seem really great but will prove impractical over the long run.  Others may seem impractical at first, but will have the seeds of a long term solution that will bloom as we develop the technology.  

As with all new ideas, people tend to eschew change and find reasons why things won't work.  I saw this in the elevator industry.  Many of the old elevator engineers despised the demise of mechanical relay logic controlled elevators and pissed and moaned about the new electronically controlled systems, claiming they'd be unreliable and unsafe.  The reality was that they were outside their comfort zone and didn't want to admit that the technology had developed beyond their knowledge base.  This tendency exists in all forms of technology, whether elevators, computer systems, energy development, or transportation.  

If we are to progress beyond petroleum based energy, we need to embrace change and innovation of all sorts and forms, and get out of our comfort zones, where we are familiar with the existing technology but it may not be the best solution.  As for whether battery swapping will work, no one really knows because the technology is in its infancy.  The key to finding solutions is to embrace possibilities and explore them thoroughly, not to reflexively say no.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 6:58am
Ok, the Ample video link makes more sense in the conversation. From the previous one I thought you were referring to the well known Nio program which is swapping batteries at much higher levels in China.

Ample quite obviously offered CNBC access to get this video in the media going on a year ago bc it was shopping for higher valuations and more funding. It accomplished that, a few months ago it secured series C funding and is probably close or at unicorn status now.

This is what these Si Valley startups do, you have to take this stuff with a grain (or 10) of salt.
I for one would not invest in these guys (if I had money which I don't). Their business model makes no sense to me in the US and there are competitors in China who are far far ahead of them. Nio recently launched in Norway where EV sales are already 2/3 of total auto sales, and have plans to offer battery swapping there. Well see what happens.

Don't you think that Ample would make much fanfare if they actually had a major automaker signed up as a partner? I couldn't find one. That is absolutely essential to their business model. You will not have a auto warranty if you have Ample modify your EVs systems without the OEMs blessing.

As all these reports indicate this solution is best targeted at fleet operators and urban apartment dwellers with small vehicles and no place to plug in. That is the vast majority of the middle class in developing countries like China and India. But not here, and not for the kind of thing you're looking for LA, which is long distance rural towing.

Batteries get cheaper, lighter, and faster to charge all the time. The more they advance the less need for a new technology to solve what are quickly becoming old problems.








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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 7:00am
One thing that makes it difficult is the sheer size of the US. I see this as a very viable technology for cities where the population density is high and the distances needing to be driven are less. I don't see it working out west where there are many, many miles of no civilization between cities of a sufficient size to have such a swap facility. Reality is that Lithium Ion batteries will likely be obsolete before sufficient swap stations could be built to swap them. I keep hoping that some of the technology currently being experimented with will turn out to have the power density and speed of recharge that will allow for the range and power needed for travel. Likewise though, I am likely to be long gone and my grandchildren will still be looking for technology that is better for this purpose.

I had high hopes for fuel cells. however, transporting hydrogen of a sufficient purity to be used and not contaminate the catalysts needed to work still seems to be an issue. Pumping cryogenic hydrogen is going to require even more technology than battery swapping, not to mention what happens if there is a crash. Hydrogen burns almost invisibly when pure.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 8:11am
Fast changing technology is certainly a valid concern when trying to develop a standardized system of devices.  Computers are a perfect example.  Every computer one buys is out dated before it leaves the store.  The catch is to try to develop designs that facilitate evolution in technology.  If we get on the merry-go-round of reinventing the wheel each time we explore new ideas, we'll never agree on a system that we can really utilize.  We had the same issue with electrification of the world; to go with AC or DC, to use 60 cycles, 50 cycles, 120 or 240 volts and so on.  And this issue was incredibly simple in comparison with the replacement of the ICE.

Who knows whether Ample's system will succeed or whether someone will find better solutions?  But they are presenting a possible solution that may work.  Regarding their lack of penetration into large automotive manufactures, I didn't know that Nissan/Renault was an insignificant player in the automotive industry.  I was in Colombia last week and was surprised that this insignificant manufacturing company had about a quarter of the automotive market in vehicles on the road in metropolitan Medellin area.  

OG, apparently you didn't understand my saying that I'm not in the EV market.  I'm not looking for long range towing with an EV.  It simply isn't going to happen in my lifetime.  My point in posting the information about battery exchange is that it is simply a technology that may have some promise if it is explored and developed.  Your reply reminds me of the old elevator engineers I mentioned.

Yes, the USA is a big country that presents challenges for EV's.  We have just under 3.8M square miles in our borders.  China is close with a tad over 3.7M.  Both countries have similar distances to cover with major population centers densely packed and huge expanses of open sparsely populated areas.  Building charging options for the outlying areas in both countries will be a tremendous challenge for each.  I don't want to sound nationalistic, but I think we in the US are pretty clever folks and have the creativity to solve this problem.  Maybe I'm just a dreamer, but I want a better world for my grandkids too.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 8:53am
I just don't want us to jump into something that in the end, is no better solution than what it is trying to replace. I also don'/t want us to abandon what works for what might work someday while looking to find ways to make that transition. Auto companies that are saying that they will not make any ICE vehicles after X date might be okay for a country such as Germany which is smaller than Montana but with a population greater than California. However, Germany will need to re-think abandoning nuclear power if it expects to charge all those batteries. There are just not enough alternative sources in Germany to bituminous coal or lignite. AFAIK, Germany has little natural gas or petroleum resources, so most energy has to be imported.

Meanwhile, the increasing cost of raw materials and the increasing cost of the energy needed to process and, more importantly, to move them to where needed is making such conversion to alternative energy even more out of reach for the average person. We have not yet seen the full impact of rising diesel fuel prices, but it is hitting now. Prices of just about everything we need to buy are about to go through the roof.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 9:32am
We have been using the world's resources for thousands of years with little concern for future generations. What we are seeing now is entirely predictable and expected.  As I have said many times before:  There is no such thing as a free lunch.  

Honestly, we will never solve the problem of consumption of resources.  There will never be "enough" because it is human nature to always want more in a world of finite limits.  All we can do is muddle through as best we can and try to minimize the complications by keeping an open mind to ideas that may help mitigate the consequences of our materialism.  But I wax too philosophical in that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 11:10am
I'm all in favor of increasing efficiency of our energy use. What we can't do unless we are willing to adopt an Amish lifestyle, is to drastically reduce our energy use. It still takes energy to heat and cool our homes and power our appliances, cook our food, clean our laundry, and many, many other things. Even the Amish use energy. While they do not use grid electricity, some are adopting solar, which is good. Mechanical (read ICE) power is used to power the lathes, saws, and other tools the Amish use to manufacture the various products we can find. They may not own cars, but they will ride in them, using energy to commute to work if it is out of horse and buggy distance from their homes.

We all could learn some lessons about simplifying our lifestyles, but I do not want to give up air conditioning in the summer or heat in the winter. I am too old to go out and chop and split wood. I did that while I was young and have no urge to do so again.
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