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Renewable propane
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GlueGuy View Drop Down
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Posts: 2629 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GlueGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Renewable propane
    Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 1:53pm
My Mom & Dad lived on a lake in northern Minnesota during their retirement years. They had a "Wilkening" fireplace installed in the divider between their living room and rec room (it was a 2-sided  fireplace). 

It was quite innovative at the time; it drew combustion air through a large diameter pipe to the outside, and it had a bunch of baffling above the firebox to extract heat from the flue. The firebox itself was suspended in the space around it. The fireplace had large vents above and below the firebox such that it would draw cool room air in near the floor and the hot air went out with similar vents above the firebox. 

They insulated the house to the nines. IIRC, they put in R50 insulation in the ceiling. It was good enough that they only needed firewood to heat their house all winter. This is in Minnesota where the winter cold is legendary. That said, they still went through ~~ 6 cord of wood each winter. Luckily, they had acreage that allowed them to collect various hard woods from their own property.
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offgrid View Drop Down
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Posts: 5290 		Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 5:36pm
I heat (mostly) with wood as well. If you're not in an urban area where particulate pollution is a big issue wood heat can be quite green (pun intended). It's biomass so you're returning CO2 to the atmosphere that was extracted there via photosynthesis to begin with. So it depends how the wood was harvested, processes, a s transported. Wood is not a very energy sense fuel, as anyone who has seriously heated with it knows well. So if its locally and selectively harvested then it's good if it's I industrially harvested or shipped a long distance not so much. In my case I burn about 3 cords a year which I cut and split from dead or undesirable trees on my property.  My chainsaw and splitter are electric so the only fossil fuel I use  is diesel for the tractor to haul the wood to the woodshed, and in working on electrifying the tractor too. That's just me, I'm too cheap to buy wood I can cut myself and dont like maintaining a bunch of engines. Im looking forward to the day when the only ICE I own is in the airplane, I don't expect to live long enough to convert that.

The problem I have with wood heat is my stove is small and wont heat the house at temps below about 25 so right now  I have to use electric resistance heat  to augment the wood. Resistance heat is the most inefficient and costly kind. So even though most of my heating btus are from wood I still have pretty high electric consumption in midwinter.   My current heat pump is typical of past generations and has a balance point around 32 (balance point is the outside temp where the HVAC system kicks in the electric strip heaters)  . The new heat pumps coming out have a COP above 2 down to 15 degrees or so, so they will be twice as efficient as the strips at that temp.  That is the way to go now unless you live in a very cold location   And the Inflation Reduction Act gives you a tax credit if you install one.  Check it out. 

I'll stick with my statement that I don't expect bio propane to move the needle. Sure lots of rural folks have propane heat now, but that's because it's been cheaper than using electric resistance heat. That wonts be true in the future. Biologically produced propane is going to be expensive. I expect folks are going to vote with their pocketbooks and put in high performance heat pumps run on inexpensive solar and wind electricity. Anyway, we'll see.
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Posts: 6128 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furpod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by StephenH

Nice! Is that a soapstone stove?



Yes, it's a Hearthstone Mansfield. We love it.
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Posts: 6128 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furpod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by jato

Curious as to how many face cord do you go through each winter and what kind of wood do you burn.  Our stove also has a large glass door in front to view the fire but is all boiler plate steel.  In northern Michigan we burn mainly ash, maple, beech, and ironwood and go through 12 face cords in a normal winter.  It also has a 4" flexible pipe attached in the rear to take in outside air for combustion, a huge plus and much more efficient in keeping the humidity at a healthy level.


I am not sure what the measurement of a face cord is, but my guess it's near a "rick". A cord is a stack, 4 feet high, 4 feet deep, and 8 feet long, 128 cubic feat, stacked in such a manner that "a mouse can get through.. but a cat cannot".  LOL..

We go through between 1.5 and 2 cords, burning whatever falls on the property or we get gifted..ie: "a tree is dead at my place, can you come get it" or words to that effect. On the stacks right now, we have red oak, white oak, walnut, cherry, and some locust.

I have 2 cord or so of oak, and probably close to a cord of cherry waiting for splitting and stacking right now. I still split by hand so rounds accumulate during the summer, and get split and stacked in the fall/winter.

3,100 sqft or so.. 2 stories, open floor plan. The master suite runs about 5 degrees cooler, but we like it that way.



The heat prep zone..


White oak and walnut


Some wood coming home from the hunting property a couple winters ago...
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Tars Tarkas View Drop Down
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Posts: 1446 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Tars Tarkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 8:58pm
Splitting wood got to hurt too much a few years ago so I bought a 30 ton splitter from Northern Tool.  There's more than one way to do this calculation, but it came real close to paying for itself the first year.  It still runs great and handles everything I throw at it. Life changes so right now I can't heat with wood, but we had a near-tornado a few months ago so I have a bunch of wood I'm going to split and stack anyway.  Worst case, I guess I'll sell it.  If firewood prices go up like propane and electricity I'll make a fortune.

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Posts: 6128 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furpod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Tars Tarkas

Splitting wood got to hurt too much a few years ago so I bought a 30 ton splitter from Northern Tool.  There's more than one way to do this calculation, but it came real close to paying for itself the first year.  It still runs great and handles everything I throw at it. Life changes so right now I can't heat with wood, but we had a near-tornado a few months ago so I have a bunch of wood I'm going to split and stack anyway.  Worst case, I guess I'll sell it.  If firewood prices go up like propane and electricity I'll make a fortune.

TT


Yeah, I promised myself I would get a splitter at 60... 63 in a week, still haven't made the move, though I was at TSC Monday, looked hard at what they had.. The "pays for itself" equation is always subjective.. but we did our install ourselves, still have not paid a penny outright for wood, we figure our break even was about 5 years in. 12 years now with the stove. It's also just, a better heat. And a better atmosphere. I never want to go to the basement and have a pour of bourbon and watch the heat pump run... LOL
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StephenH View Drop Down
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Posts: 6288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 2022 at 9:39pm
My sister and her husband installed a ground loop heat pump. It took some doing in the rocky soil of western NY. One part of their yard was solid rock so they had to route around that. It is more efficient, but I agree. There is nothing to see. A fireplace or wood stove with window is much more pleasant to look at.

We have a fireplace, but prefer to use the gas pack furnace/AC for heating and cooling. We used to live in a house with a heat pump. Our electric bills in winter were sky-high and that was keeping the heat turned down. We had a couple of oil-filled electric heaters to use at night in the bedroom since that was a more even heat than the heat pump could provide. I don't want to live in a house with a heat pump for heat again. Natural gas heat is much more affordable.
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jato View Drop Down
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Posts: 3221 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 8:32am
"Cord" means differently in different parts of the country.  In many areas the standard cord is the given which is 4' wide by 4' high x 8' long.  In northern Michigan many refer to a "FACE" cord (and is sold this way) as 16" wide x 4' high x 8' long so in the case I gave above where I state we go through 12 cords during any given winter, using the standard cord as measurement I actually burn 4 cord/winter. 
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Posts: 6288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 10:07am
Here is more information that will define the various types of cords:
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Posts: 6128 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furpod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 11:22am
Originally posted by StephenH

Here is more information that will define the various types of cords:



That's a good link, and covers it pretty well.. In our case, actual measurements can be a bit tricky, because we don't buck our rounds to 16 inches, but 22. That's how long of a split I can reliably load into the firebox, east/west. And that gets me my best bTu load, for longer burns, less loading. Until it gets below about 10F outside, we can usually go on 2 loads a day, but extra windy days or highs in the low teens to single digits will mean 3 loads a day. Thankfully our winters are mild enough that this only happens a few times a year, at most. And our high efficiency heat pump allows us to not be bankrupt if we let it run some, so I usually don't build a fire until it's below 40F outside..
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