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Renewable propane

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jato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Renewable propane
    Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by mjlrpod

I use a pellet stove. I cant say enough good things about it. Mine is a Harmon fireplace insert. I never use the boiler in the house, unless I choose too. I burn nothing but douglass fir pellets and can go 2 weeks or more in the absolute dead of winter without emptying ash ashpan. Really good system, except you need to buy pellets. I don't have any neighbors saying " hey a pallet of pellets fell in my yard, wanna come get it?" 


The Harmon is a great stove.  We purchased our Harmon TL 200 in October 2002 and it still runs like a champ.  We love the glass window in front as well as the outside air used for combustion.  We use about 4 cords during the winter here in northern Michigan.  Usually start wood burning mid-November to about mid-April.  The only thing we replace on a somewhat regular basis, about every 5 years is the ceramic fiber afterburner which runs about $ 250.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 10:04am
I too have experienced the limitations of the older style heat pumps. In fact, I still have one right now, and my electric usage spikes in mid winter  even though I also have a wood stove as well.  I'm getting rid of it next year.

But times change, and technology progresses, so what was true 20 or ever 10 or even 5 years ago may be incorrect now. We all have to step up to the challenge to keep up to date. Heat pumps are one of those tech areas. Solar is another.

As for cooling, that is of course simply running a heat pump in reverse, extracting heat from the inside air and dumping it into outside air. So either way, the heat pump efficiency follows the same thermodynamic formula. (It also turns out to be the same formula as in a heat engine, but inverted). For a heat pump theoretical efficiency is Thot/(Thot-Tcold) and for air conditioning it is Tcold/(Thot-Tcold) where T is absolute temperature. Since Thot-Tcold (also known as delta T) is a much smaller number than the absolute hot or cold temperature itself we can get phenomenally good efficiencies out of heat pumps and air conditioners. 

The numbers get better the smaller that temp differential is. And, the differential is much smaller for summer cooling than it is for winter heating. If say it's 100 degrees out and you have your tstat set at  say 80 that's only 20 degrees delta T. Compare that to a typical winter heating scenario where it's 20 degrees out and your tstat is set at 70, a 50 degree spread. 

You see where this is heading? The point is that the benefit in reducing the temp you're pumping heat to is much less  in summer than the benefit in raising it is in winter, because the summer delta T is not very large to begin with. So, if it doesn't pay to install geothermal for winter heating it won't pay to install it for summer cooling either. 

For me personally living in the mountains  the summer cooling requirement is negligible. Propane is expensive, I have no access to natural gas  and don't want to be spending money on or burning fossil fuel anyway.  I would still personally consider installing a "geothermal" water source heat pump for winter if I had a nearby pond that was big enough to act as a heat source/sink for the system. Then it's just a matter of tossing a big coil of plastic pipe in the pond to act as a heat exchanger. Although water source heat pumps are more expensive than air source ones at least you don't have all the expense of burying the ground source loop, and the loop is much shorter because the heat exchange between it and water is much better than with soil. But lacking a large pond I'm going with a hybrid solar powered mini split/wood heat solution . Mini splits look fine to me. I don't have to heat or cool rooms I'm not using. What I don't like are noisy air handlers and compressors in centrdl systems.  Both the inside and outside mini split units are very quiet. 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 7:30pm
A lot depends on one's situation. I might lean more toward a heat pump if I had oil or propane as the fuel source. The experience with the heat pump was in a rental where the landlord was certainly not concerned with how efficient the system was.

The place my parents used to live (Forest Lake Estates in Zephyrhills, FL) used a pond as a source for heating the swimming pool, so I am familiar with that. They said it saved the park a lot of money.

What did you think of the Classic Edge Titanium HDX outdoor furnace I linked?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 6:41am
A lot of folks around my area have outdoor wood furnaces and love them. They are quite sophisticated nowadays, they had to be reengineered to meet the stringent new EPA standards. That also makes them pretty expensive. The new ones have microprocessor controlled dampers and use some water based  thermal storage to levelize output  so can generate heat as demanded by the home HVAC system. And they have large fireboxes so you can load them infrequently and with large pieces of firewood (less cutting and splitting to do). All the wood, smoke  and soot mess, creosote and chimney fire risk stays outside the house which is nice.

The downsides are that the cost and effort to install these isn't trivial. Besides the boiler itself you need to install either a water to air heat exchanger in your air handler, or hydronic radiators, or radiant floor heating, the first option being the easiest if you have existing ductwork. And you need to run a set of insulated pipes with a circulating pump from the boiler to the heat exchanger(s). The other downside is that you don't get to enjoy looking at the fire in your living room. Also you need to either run the boiler  all the time when it's cold out or use antifreeze in the water loop. An indoor pellet stove has many of the same cleanliness and ease of use  advantages and is much less expensive but then you have to buy the pellets. 

So overall if you have a free or  inexpensive source of wood and plan on heating full time with it these can be a  good choice in a rural area.  You can still keep your indoor wood stove or fireplace for fire viewing. Not sure I'd install one in a suburban location even if allowed because of risk of it getting banned down the road due to particulate pollution. 

In my case I don't think I'm going to want to hear with wood exclusively as I get older. And I picked up a glass door water stove inexpensively  which I can install and connect to a heat exchanger in my air handler and possibly some thermal storage. With a high efficiency heat pump as my base heating that will give me wood heating as much as I want and still let me view the fire. 

Just my observations, everyone's needs are different. One alternative they have in northern Europe is residential multi fuel (wood pellets, wood chips, even switchgrass (which is an interesting biomass fuel) burners combined with bulk solid fuel  delivery. The furnaces are similar to a pellet stove but instead of storing and handling bags of pellets  you have a wood pellet or chip storage bin in your basement which a supplier comes and fills as required.  There is an automated auger system to deliver the pellets/chips and stoke the boiler. Pretty interesting alternative but we don't have it here. 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 1:08pm
Kind of like a coal stove, but using various wood products instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 2:51pm
Yep, probably the European biomass furnaces have been modified from what were once coal furnaces to burn biomass solid fuels. Coal is strongly frowned upon in most of Europe these days, although it still provides about 10% of European energy requirements. I'm sure they wish it was more since the Russian natural gas cutoff. 
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