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Renewable propane

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David and Danette View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote David and Danette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Renewable propane
    Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 5:36pm
   Renewable propane is something new I just read about and sounds like something positive. From what I read it is a positive step for a fuel source that has a low carbon output. Sounds like good news for campers since campers use propane for refrigeration, heat and cooking. Hope it soon is available nationwide.
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lostagain View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 6:37pm
Do you think you could provide a link to the article you read?  Much thanks.
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David and Danette View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote David and Danette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 7:02pm
Best I can do is Google  " 3.15- Reducing Carbon Intensity " I am not that smart with computers sorry. Maybe someone else can create a link
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lostagain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 7:48pm
Thanks.  I found it:  https://propane.com/environment/podcast/3-15-reducing-carbon-intensity-with-renewable-propane/

Very interesting if it can withstand the normal scientific peer review and can be scaled up for mass production at an economical cost.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote offgrid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 12:03pm
It's a biofuel.  Like biodiesel, its made from biological sources, veggie oil, etc. The difference is that it's chemically identical to fossil propane, so it's compatible with any device that burns fossil propane, unlike biodiesel. So that's good. 

But the article from PERC is highly misleading. It shows the carbon intensity of renewable propane as much better than grid electricity. But look at the units (gCO2/MJ). They are equating megajoules of energy contained in fuels to megajoules of electricity in wires. That's very misleading because if what you want is electricity then you have to run the fuel (propane  gasoline, diesel, coal, whatever)  through an engine of some kind to produce the electricity, and that process is very inefficient. Also, the electricity grid is rapidly decarbonizing via massive increases in cheap  solar and wind capacity, so it's carbon intensity is dropping quickly. PERC is a propane industry lobbying group so that kind of misdirection is to be expected. It's not wrong, just not on point. Bottom line is that if you want to lower atmospheruc CO2 and can use electricity, do it, and invest in solar and wind to produce it. That's the quickest path to low carbon. Yeah I know nukes work and are zero carbon but no one wants one in their backyard. 

That being said, there are energy requirements that can't currently be met practically by electricity. Those include aviation, long haul trucking, and long haul rpod towing. For those application, biofuels like SAF (sustainable aviation fuel), biodiesel, etc are a great intermediate step until the day comes when batteries are up to the challenge, if they ever are. 

I'm not quite seeing where renewable propane fits into that though as it's not currently used as a vehicle fuel, and it's much better for home heating and cooking just to convert to electric. For that matter, RV fridges are in process of  transition  to electric too. I guess maybe for RV off grid cooking, heating  and water heating renewable propane might make sense. It's an easy change for the consumer. Overall though that's  not going to move the atmospheric carbon needle much one way or the other. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote furpod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 3:55pm
One thing to note.. in a lot of the world, propane does the same things it does for RPoders, but for whole homes.. so the scale may be better than "we" think.
Our home doesn't use propane or CNG, but nearly every other one on this road does. We have a geothermal heat pump, but our main heat is from a good old fashioned wood stove.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 8:30pm
Nice! Is that a soapstone stove?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2022 at 3:41am
Curious as to how many face cord do you go through each winter and what kind of wood do you burn.  Our stove also has a large glass door in front to view the fire but is all boiler plate steel.  In northern Michigan we burn mainly ash, maple, beech, and ironwood and go through 12 face cords in a normal winter.  It also has a 4" flexible pipe attached in the rear to take in outside air for combustion, a huge plus and much more efficient in keeping the humidity at a healthy level.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gpokluda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2022 at 12:23pm
Back in the 80's and 90's we lived in the mountains east of Albuquerque in a log home I built from a kit. We had a large Lopi wood stove that was our main source of heat, with some electric baseboard for when we went out of town. We would routinely burn 3 cords of juniper/pinon mix and 2-3 cords of oak to heat the two story, 1800sqft. Heating a home mostly by wood was a science for us. Wood was usually seasoned at least a year if not two, burn the juniper/pinon mix during the day and load up with oak at night so there would be a good bed of coals in the morning to get the fire going. It was a lot of work. We spent our summers cutting wood and staging it to season for the following years. I remember many a wood cutting "picnics" and camping trips.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote StephenH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2022 at 6:37pm
In the 1970s we lived in Swansboro, NC. We did not have much money. We moved into a double-wide in which the previous owner had installed a wood burning stove, but had not left it. I purchased a cast iron Consolidated Duchwest stove and installed it on a thick fire resistant pad and built an enclosure around the back sides to shield the walls. I went out to the forest and cut up fallen wood with a small chain saw. I took it home and split it with an ax. I did not have a splitting maul or wedges. We didn't have a lot of money to spare. I did this because as inexpensive as heating oil was at the time, it was still quite expensive for us. The wood burning stove allowed me to not have to buy so much oil.

We ended up selling that place when I enlisted in the Army and entered into active duty. I don't miss those days. I could not do the same today. The arthritis in my hands would rule that out. I miss the old stove, but I don't miss the care and feeding of it.
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