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Topic ClosedProper AC wiring not used by FR

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Proper AC wiring not used by FR
    Posted: 22 May 2014 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by furpod

I have to say, I have camped at 5000 feet and above lots of times. LOTS of times. Never once needed a/c.


You weren't camping where I was for 2 weeks in 2012 at 8000 ft elevation in southwest CO with 85+ temperatures every day.   Maybe you can deal with no A/C at 85+, but I choose not to when possibleConfused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 8:14pm
Interesting....the factory may have just screwed up on mine.  Maybe they were out of 12 gauge wire that day....still no excuse.   I did try to read the gauge on the main feed from the inlet but couldn't on the part I could see.

techntrek-

Originally posted by techntrek

My only disagreement is that in this case changing to 12 gauge wire is going to give you any appreciable advantage during startup.


Well I did say I would change it to 10 gauge if I was able to change it easily.  As said I'm not gonna go ripping out panels to change it, but if FR simply ran it loose without securing it so I can pull it out while pulling in a bigger wire, I will.   So there is another small incremental gain..10 gauge rather than 14 gauge.
I guess we'll just have to have different opinions on this matter, a small gain that may be worth it to me, isn't to you.Wink
I also run no ethanol gas in my generator as it potentially yields more power than e-10LOL
Oh yeah I assembled an 8 ft 10 gauge cordset to use when on the generator and needing A/C instead of the 25 ft one FR includes , again a small incremental gainLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 8:02pm
I am wiring a surge protector in my 2014 177. I checked the AC and it is on a 20 AMP circuit with 12 gauge wire. All the 15 AMP circuits are 14 gauge. The 30 AMP was 10 gauge.

The only code problem I saw was two ground wires on the same buss bar screw. That is minor. They could strip a little more insulation on the wire for the breaker connections.Disapprove
Cary
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 6:10pm
Good advice.  I don't really need the AC on most of my trips.  I live at 5000 ft and travel to campsites as high as 8000.  But I do need sometimes to run the microwave or the convection oven off the Honda 2000.  I presume from your answers that the AC takes a lot more juice, but that I should be able to run the oven or the microwave on generator power.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 12:43pm
I agree 14 gauge wire on that circuit does not follow code, and that they didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendation.
 
My only disagreement is that in this case changing to 12 gauge wire is going to give you any appreciable advantage during startup.  I'm talking physics and not NEC.  The home run is too short.  If this were a 20 amp kitchen countertop circuit and the home run was 75 feet back to the panel, then yes that 12 gauge would be necessary, due to physics and NEC.
 
Headcold - 2000 watts is marginal.  You may find it will start it when it is 75 degrees outside and you are at sea level.  85 at sea level maybe ok, but 95 is too much.  85 at 5000 feet may be too much.  Higher altitude and/or temperature lowers the output rating of a generator (any engine).  Higher temperature increases the internal pressure in the A/C which requires more watts to get it started.  The watts needed goes too high and/or the watts available from the generator is too low and the A/C will stall and the generator will trip its overload protection.
 
furpod - yes, the calculations are within limits.
Doug ~ '10 171 (2009-2015) ~ 2008 Salem ~ Pod instruction manual
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 12:42pm
I have to say, I have camped at 5000 feet and above lots of times. LOTS of times. Never once needed a/c. Needed a snow shovel in August, but not a/c.

and just to keep on topic, we all agree there is 5% of fudge room, and the wiring is under that, correct?

oh, and at the 900 foot or so elevation where I live, a Honda 2000i will start our a/c. We do have a hard start capacitor.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 3:53am
Originally posted by techntrek

The calculator I use has slightly higher figures @ 40 amps, 2.5% and 1.6%, but again, the surge/LRA isn't part of the usual wire gauge calculations, except in unusual circumstances.  I wouldn't worry about it.  


Correct the surge capacity isn't part of the usual calculations.  In the big picture of electrical standards, this IS an unusual circumstance, considering that probably 99.9% of people in the US will never attempt to run an air conditioner in an RV with a small generator....

Since we don't seem to be on the same page let me reiterate >
 FR did NOT follow the National Electric Code for wiring size required for breaker size.
 FR did NOT follow the air conditioner manufacturers recommendations.
Doing so would have cost almost nothing.


I'm not "worried" about it.  I am disappointed FR did not follow good engineering practice nor did they deserve the touted RVIA "seal" which requires adherence to the NEC.

IF FR had done what they should have done then slightly more starting capability would have been available at the air conditioner.  
Every little bit helps. 
There are even people who have built a timer system that drops the power to the air conditioner fan for several seconds when starting the compressor.
Most of the parts for my fan cutout arrived yesterday and the rest will be in today.
By dropping the fan for a few seconds about 200 to 300 watts used to run the fan is added to the starting capability.
That is a significant amount when using a small generator. 
I need to dig out my Tectronix O'scope and current probe to take some real world measurements...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2014 at 9:47pm
Techntrek, it doesn't look like my Honda 2000 generator is going to power my AC.  Am I mistaken?  Will it run the convection over?  The microwave?  I think somewhere someone answered these questions for me with a positive ... but given this conversation, I wonder.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2014 at 5:02pm
The calculator I use has slightly higher figures @ 40 amps, 2.5% and 1.6%, but again, the surge/LRA isn't part of the usual wire gauge calculations, except in unusual circumstances.  I wouldn't worry about it.  
Doug ~ '10 171 (2009-2015) ~ 2008 Salem ~ Pod instruction manual
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2014 at 3:28pm
My figures come out different than yours-  locked rotor amps on the air con is 60+, so lets say it draws 40 amps under startup for a short period, short but very important..
 
I have about 12 ft of wire in the 179 from the breaker panel to the air cond.
 
So 12 ft of 14 has 2.2% voltage drop and 12 ft of 12 has 1.4% at 40 amps.  A difference of .8 %.
Yes nowhere near the 5% target- but then that figure doesn't take into account generators that can barely supply enough to start the air conditioner as is.
 
Am I going to rip the ceiling out to rewire it?  NO!LOL
 
But- if the undersized wire can be fished out while pulling a new wire in without a bunch of trouble then YES I will, heck may even go 10 gauge as long as I'm doing it Smile
 
Point is Dometic specs 12 gauge, I presume they have their reasons, and the NEC specs 12 gauge, but FR didn't do it, proper wiring would be a very minimal expense.
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